Episode 106: Marketing Mindset - How to Build a Sustainable Author Career with Tiffany Yates Martin
Building an author career extends beyond putting words on the page. We must master the skills needed to build a meaningful, rewarding, and resilient writing life. And that includes building our knowledge and deciding where to focus our marketing efforts.
In this episode, we're pleased to welcome Tiffany Yates Martin, author, editor, speaker and long-time industry veteran, to discuss how to create a sustainable, fulfilling writing career — including those pesky marketing parts!
About Tiffany
Tiffany has spent nearly thirty years as an editor working directly in the publishing industry with major publishers and New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today bestselling and award-winning authors as well as indie and newer writers, and is the founder of FoxPrint Editorial--a Writer’s Digest Best Websites for Writers--and author of Intuitive Editing: A Creative and Practical Guide to Revising Your Writing. and The Intuitive Author: How to Grow and Sustain a Happier Writing Career.
She leads workshops, presentations, keynotes, and master classes for conferences and writers' groups around the world and is a frequent contributor to writers' sites and publications like Writer's Digest, Jane Friedman’s blog, Writer Unboxed, and more.
Books Mentioned
This is a survival manual for authors.
Whether you’re just beginning your writing journey or are an established author, this indispensable guide gives you the tools to navigate an often difficult, demanding field and overcome the toughest challenges writers face.
Whether you’re writing fiction, narrative nonfiction, or memoir; whether this your first story or your fiftieth, Intuitive Editing will give you the tools you need to edit and revise your own writing with inspiration, motivation, and confidence.
Connect with Tiffany:
Full Disclosure: We are part of the Amazon affiliate program, which means Lainey earns a tiny commission (maybe enough for half a coffee) if you buy something after clicking through from a link on this website.
Episode Sponsor
Lilian Sue, author of The Powerful Publicity Prescription, and owner of In Retrospect Writing Services.
The Powerful Publicity Prescription, Lilian’s debut nonfiction PR book focuses on:
Uncovering the intriguing history of PR and demystifying some of the most popular PR myths
How to identify and overcome fear, anxiety, imposter syndrome and more limiting beliefs to build a strong PR mindset
How to unlock the superpower behind your story with confidence
Crafting irresistible story pitches and developing powerful relationships to get your books in front of the right audiences with step-by-step guidance.
As a PR coach and publicist, Lilian empowers authors and creative entrepreneurs to gain the confidence to unlock the superpowers behind their stories, to push past limiting beliefs and learn the tools, resources and knowledge to launch successful PR campaigns to increase sales and achieve their goals of becoming experts. Through 1:1 coaching, she gives authors the personalized support, guidance, clarity and tailored resources they need to harness PR to get their books in front of the right readers.
Learn about The Powerful Publicity Prescription
How Lilian can help authors: Lilian’s services
Connect with her on Instagram
Webinar: Pros and Cons of Hiring a Publicist - Lilian Sue and Lainey Cameron answer your questions about the pros and cons of hiring a publicist.
Episode Resources
Tiffany’s blog is chock full of motivation and resources!
Dealing with the Writer Demons with Tiffany Yates Martin - Sunday Sermon with Jane Friedman
Get It Edited! How to find, vet, and work with the right editor for you and your story
Tips for building resilience in your life - from the American Psychological Association
How to Survive Negative Reader Reviews by Paulette Stout
Webinar: Storytelling Marketing For Authors with Lynne Golodner
12 Weeks to Book Launch Success - Lainey’s program to help authors successfully launch their book
Note: next sections are mostly created by AI for your convenience - so please forgive any typos or inaccuracies!
Summary
Paulette Stout, Lainey Cameron and Tiffany Yates Martin discuss her new book, "The Intuitive Author," which emphasizes resilience and sustainability in writing careers.
Tiffany highlights the importance of mastering both hard and squishy skills, defining personal success, and adapting to changes. She stresses the value of community, networking, and self-care.
Tiffany also shares insights on balancing writing with marketing, the importance of professional editing, and the need to reassess goals regularly. The conversation touches on the challenges of maintaining creativity during stressful times and leveraging personal experiences for storytelling.
Introduction
Paulette Stout introduces Tiffany Yates Martin and the topic of the podcast, focusing on overcoming imposter syndrome and building a sustainable author career.
Paulette shares updates on her upcoming book, "What We Give Away," which is off to the editor and in the final stages of production.
Lainey Cameron discusses her move with her 80-year-old mom and the impact it has on her writing and other responsibilities.
Lainey announces a free webinar she is hosting with Lynn Galodner on using storytelling skills for marketing
Tiffany Yates Martin's Approach to Writing and Career Sustainability
Tiffany Yates Martin explains the concept of being an "intuitive author," emphasizing the importance of internal motivation and resilience in building a writing career.
Tiffany highlights the need to master both hard skills (e.g., marketing, design, legal knowledge) and squishy skills (e.g., motivation, authenticity, dealing with writer demons).
Paulette appreciates the book's focus on sustainability and long-term career building, rather than just short-term success.
Tiffany clarifies that a writing career can mean pursuing writing professionally in any capacity, not necessarily making a living solely from writing.
Defining Success and Setting Goals
Tiffany discusses the three core elements of defining success: why we write, what we want, and what we value.
She emphasizes the importance of identifying the core drive behind wanting to be a writer and aligning goals with personal values.
Tiffany advises authors to reassess their goals periodically to ensure they still fit with their current life circumstances and values.
The conversation touches on the importance of setting realistic expectations and defining success by personal metrics rather than external outcomes.
Building Resilience and Adapting to Change
Tiffany stresses the importance of resilience in sustaining a writing career and the need to adapt to changes in the industry.
She shares her approach to handling unexpected changes, such as the impact of social media algorithms on author platforms.
Tiffany advises authors to focus on what they can control and to define their success by internal satisfactions rather than external metrics.
The discussion includes the importance of adapting to changes in the market and being open to new opportunities.
The Role of Community and Networking
Tiffany differentiates between building a network and building a community, emphasizing the value of genuine connections and giving back.
She shares her experience of building community in her neighborhood and how it helped during a crisis.
Lainey Cameron suggests finding volunteer roles in writing associations to build connections and visibility early in one's career.
The conversation highlights the importance of being a contributing member of the writing community and the long-term benefits of building genuine relationships.
Investing in Professional Services and Education
Tiffany discusses the importance of investing in professional services like editing, cover design, and marketing, but emphasizes the need to do so rationally.
She advises authors to consider their personal goals, business needs, financial situation, and time when deciding on investments.
Paulette recommends investing in professional editing as a crucial step in developing one's writing career.
The conversation touches on the value of hiring the right editor and the importance of fit in the editor-author relationship.
Balancing Writing and Marketing
The panel discusses the importance of balancing writing time with marketing efforts and the need to avoid burnout.
Tiffany emphasizes the value of community and networking in supporting authors' careers and reducing the pressure of marketing alone.
Lainey shares her experience of hosting a writers' support group and the benefits of connecting with other authors.
The conversation highlights the importance of finding what works for each author in terms of marketing and community building.
Staying Creative During Troubled Times
Tiffany shares tips for staying creative during stressful times, such as the pandemic or political unrest, and the importance of self-care.
She advises authors to lean into their feelings and use them as inspiration for their writing, rather than avoiding them.
Tiffany emphasizes the power of storytelling to process and share emotions, and the importance of staying connected to what drives them as writers.
The conversation concludes with a focus on the resilience and adaptability needed to sustain a writing career through challenging times.
Transcript
Paulette Stout 0:01
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Best of Book Marketing Podcast today. We have a great show for you today with Tiffany Yates Martin. Lainey Cameron is here as always, and somehow we both wore pink today, so hopefully you're kind of digging the pink vibe. Y'all so I know, right? So this is a really great topic, because, you know, when we're pulled to write, you know, we all have our different readings.
We love words, we love books, and we just want to create, but at some point we all like start struggling, and we, you know, we get imposter syndrome. We're frustrated, we kind of question our creativity.
And today, we'll be diving into all the usable tips that we can get to write, and it's all covered in Tiffany Yates Martin's new book, The Intuitive Author. Jane Friedman said of the book she wholeheartedly applauds her approach to prioritize resilience in the face of new and old industry challenges, every writer is going to encounter troubles, and Tiffany shows you how to respond, and it's how you respond that's what's better. Thank you, Tiffany for joining us today on the best of Book Marketing podcast.
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:10
Thank you, Paulette, thanks Lainey for having me.
Paulette Stout 1:14
We are doing some new business today. So if you're watching on YouTube, you might be watching on Facebook, you might be watching Instagram, not sure if it's live. If we get that going, we'll see. So if you are watching on Instagram, chat us and see if you know we can make that all happen too. So we'll just start with some updates. I guess I will go first for updates. My next book, what we give away, is off to the editor, and I'm really excited. It's with her now, and they'll go the proofreader and the in the narrator, so it's really kind of in the finishing stages.
And today's a great conversation, because I feel like I'm starting to get my little post book blues, so I think we'll be able to talk about that the piece book couldn't arrive at a better time, um, reaching out to influencers and things to kind of get them on board. And, you know, some that I've done before, some news. So that's kind of exciting. I did want to talk about one really quick thing in this update that I'm doing on my new covers, because it's always great when we have authors, we help each other.
And as I was posting my new cover around someone's like, this is standalone. Says book for it is a book four, and my bullets are twos, but it's a stand alone. So I am adding language to my covers that they stand alone on them. And so that's something to think about from the user and the reader experience. Is there any confusion there with your books and how they can read it and if they have to read a series all the way through? So just wanted to mention that. And Eleni over to you. You have nothing going on.
Lainey Cameron 2:44
So I was sharing right before we started that I've shared in the past that we're moving my mom, my 80 year old mom from Santa Cruz, which is where I am right now, in a podcast room at a co working space, and we're moving her to Mexico to live near us. And tomorrow is move truck day.
So if you can imagine, our house is full of boxes, and it's complete mania, and I have done zero writing for the last week, and I think it was Jan Hedrick Rice, who said yesterday, she thinks of life in seasons. And I liked that, like this is the season of moving my mom, and I'm just going to barely tread water on everything else, and that's okay. And then when we get that done, then I'll be in a different season, and I'll have time for marketing and time for doing other things, and it's okay, I'm going to try really hard to kind of have grace with myself on that, and that's just the way it is.
Saying that I have got a really cool thing coming up next week that I wanted to let people know about, which is that I'm hosting a free webinar, and you are all welcome to join this. It's with Lynn Golodner, and it's kind of a fun one. It's about how to use your storytelling skills to do marketing. So how do you make your marketing easier by using your storytelling skills, which is why you're a writer to start with, right? And so that's coming up next week, on Thursday, October 17. We'll put all the info on the episode page, on the website for Best of book marketing so you can find it. But I'm really looking forward to that and that, and this and packing is pretty much all I've done for the last two weeks, and that's okay.
So saying that, saying that the the master slash mistress, masters of knowing how to give ourself grace and think about how to have both a resilient and more satisfying writer career. From my perspective, is Tiffany. I know Tiffany, because Tiffany actually was the developmental editor. I'm gonna like to say that Tiffany, yeah, on your website, yeah, my first book, The exit strategy, which went on to win 15 awards. So I think Tiffany did something right and helping me get it right. Let me tell you. We wrote that. I rewrote that book multiple times under Tiffany's guidance. So something right with where it ended, but also I am a huge fan of Tiffany's blog.
Okay, so Tiffany has moved on her blog, and we might talk more. You can talk about this too, but she's moved on her blog from talking about kind of the how to edit your work and the craft side of it to the motivation and the soul side of it, of, how do we keep at this really hard thing? How. Do we develop her resiliency, and how do we kind of gift ourselves the grace to do this in the long term, if it's something we want to do long term?
And so I love, love, love, Tiffany's blog. I encourage you all to go subscribe to it, and we're going to talk a lot today about the book that Tiffany created coming out of that blog. But I am lucky enough to have a picture, an actual copy I'm holding up on screen if you're watching the video. It's called the intuitive author, and it has so much dang good stuff in it. So I'm super excited that we're going to get to talking in depth with Tiffany today. So let's get to it. Let's go so Tiffany, you say in the introduction to this fabulous book that it's not just about the writing.
Now, obviously, I think Paulette and I agree with you there, but I'm really interested in, you know, tell our audience who haven't, kind of had the benefit of being on your blog or reading the book yet, because it isn't quite out. It's coming out in a few days as we're recording this, and it'll be out if you're listening to the audio. Tell our audience, like, What do you mean by that? That it's not just about the writing.
Tiffany Yates Martin 5:56
I think we go into this with the idea that we love writing, as you were saying earlier, but that really is just a small fraction of trying to create a writing career. Not only do you have to have the hard skills quote of things like, you know, the marketing and if you're self publishing, indie publishing, you have to learn all of that. You have to learn design. You have to learn some legal information, because you're signing contracts, you're giving away your rights. You have to learn all this stuff.
But then, in addition to that, we have to master what I call the squishy skills. And that's the stuff that's a little bit harder because it is squishy. It's motivation, it's being authentic, it's dealing with the writer demons, all the obstacles that are external to this career and real, like all the stuff we were just talking about that's difficult and challenging, there are equally as many, if not more, that we generate from within or that are in or that inherent, are inherent to having a writing career. So if you want to build a career, if you want to write, you write, if you want to build a writing career, you have to master all of those things.
Paulette Stout 7:10
That's like, that's so huge, because it's and I think that's why I appreciate the book so much, because it's you have this whole idea, but the sustainability of everything you do. It's not just for the short term, is for the long term.
Tiffany Yates Martin 7:21
Yeah, you're built. You're building something, but you're also creating, day by day, the life that you're living as a writer, as a writer who's creating a professional career. And just to start at the beginning, when I say writing career, and Lainey, you pointed this out, which was such a valid point, when Lainey was kind enough to be a beta reader.
For me, a writing career doesn't necessarily mean that you are a full time writer making a living from your writing. When I use the term, I just mean that you are pursuing your writing in a in any kind of professional way you are if you write and you are sharing your writing in some form, you're building a writing career, whatever that means and looks like for you, and finding out what that is for each of us individually is a big part of what the book is about. There is no one size fits all.
Paulette Stout 8:10
I love that and so, so obviously the title of the book is The Intuitive Author. So what do you mean when you say? What does that mean for you? What do you mean when you say, having like more we have more control that we realize.
Tiffany Yates Martin 8:23
So the title came. The first book was Intuitive Editing, and that came because of the way I approach editing. And what I mean by it in that capacity is that we, rather than taking some external system or dogma or what you think your you want your story to be, growing it from the inside out, figuring out what it is organically, and don't try to, like, cram it into a box. And I mean, the same thing about building a writing career, being an intuitive writer. There's lots of systems and people who are going to tell you the right way to do it, their way to do it, the successful way to do it. Yeah, all that is an air quotes Paulette, but nobody knows what that is.
If there was a formula, everybody would use it there isn't intuitive. Means that rather than waiting or trying to do it in some prescriptive way that you've been told will be successful, you're taking more autonomy over your own career. And that's what I think is missing for a lot of us. It's one of the things I think writers get discouraged by, is that we feel like we're beggars at the table or dinghies being buffeted about by these waves we can't control. But we can take the wheel. We can move from external definitions of what our career is to internal ones, process rather than product, and give ourselves control over not only what we do, how we spend our time, what we want, but not the outcome, which is the part we don't have control over.
Paulette Stout 9:52
I love that. And I think the piece that is really most meaningful for me is that, like no one right way thing you know, because I know. A lot of people when I start, you know, with this show is about marketing, but obviously we're all writers, and we have craft and, you know, there's always teaching for what is the right way to write a book, what is the right way to market a book, and what is the right topic to be, what is the right genre? There's all of these questions people have, because they're just, you enter this vortex and everything swirling, and you're just looking for some sense out of it all. But there is overwhelming any,
Tiffany Yates Martin 10:23
yeah, yeah. Well, there's become a business too, in in marketing that, you know, like, Oh, here's the way to do it. Authors are also there is a commerce built around the Creator. So there is a vested interest to convince people, I think sometimes that there is a right way to do it, but there really isn't. And you're the one who lives your life day after day.
So we have to decide how we want to do that and not feel like Paulette, I think you have such a good point about there's so much out there. It feels overwhelming. So how do we make sense of that? Well, we have to do it from the inside out. We have to start with what we want, what our goals are, what's enough for us, what we value. Once you figure that out, that's the whole first section of the book, because that's the foundation for everything else,
Lainey Cameron 11:11
right? And I love the concept that we have more control than we think we do. Like I think it's really easy to feel like we have no control at all, that, you know, the agent decides whether to pick us up, and the publisher decides whether to publish us, and then the publisher decides whether to publish us again. And it's really easy to see it through a lens of like, we have no control over any of this, right? All we can do is throw it into the universe and hope it works out.
But I like what you're saying in the book, which is, we have a lot more control than we think we do, right? Like, it depends how you define it, right? So, like, in that example of the agent and the publisher, well, you could self publish your book. You're not dependent on an agent and a publisher anymore. Or you could go to a small publisher, or you could go to a hybrid publisher. And so like, I think it's easy to kind of put this myopic, this really narrow view on it, where we say, well, we have no control of anything.
And I really like all the different ways that you talk in the book about, well, if you define your goals, you do have a sense of control that you control your goals, you control your writing schedule, you control what you bring to your art. There's so many elements of this that we can control. I wonder how that applies to the marketing area. And I'm sure polite is going to have some thoughts on this too. But like, is it similar that we have more control than we think we do in the marketing area, too.
Tiffany Yates Martin 12:21
We do have complete control, I think, over the things we have control over. I think where we run into trouble is that we're trying to control things that we cannot control. So with marketing, it's like, oh, I want to control how many followers I get, or how many books I sell, or what kind of reviews I'm getting. You can't. And if you're trying to set yourself up to do that. Of course, you're never going to be content or satisfied or happy because you just can't.
Sometimes you might get the result you want. Sometimes you don't. It may have something to do with your efforts. It may not. There's so many subjective elements outside our control, but the things we do control are what you're willing to do what you're willing to spend time and money, resources, energy.
You decide what avenues are a good fit for you, what you're comfortable with, what you enjoy. For example, I'm I'm like, I medium, enjoy social media, so I medium, do social media, but I really enjoy teaching and speaking and going to conferences and doing online workshops. So I do a lot of that, which is more sort of organic marketing. I really enjoy my blog because it is, I feel like it's sort of my living room where Lainey, I love that you have kind of observed that over the years, it's, it's shifted from, I still do some of that kind of hard skills posts, but there's a lot of that out there.
There's a lot of really good stuff out there, and it's in my book, and it's, you know, in all my teaching, but I really wasn't seeing a lot of addressing of what these squishier skills are, and that applies to every aspect of our careers.
And to your point, Lainey, yeah, we can, we can decide, oh, we are, you know, beggars at the table or or we don't have any control if we're traditionally publishing and decide to Self Publish, and I think that's such a valid choice, and I'm so grateful that publishing has been democratized, and authors do have more choices than ever before, more access than ever before, but you still have to realize even doing that, there's so much you still can't control, and letting Go of that, I think, is what starts to give you that sense of contentment. That is what I'm talking about in the book, that lets you sustain a career over a lifetime.
Lainey Cameron 14:30
And I think I see that in the marketing area, where I noticed, for example, Beth's comment. She says, you know, there not being one right way to do things with writing can feel hard because so many of us are looking for the answer, and I think that's true in the marketing space too, right?
It's one of the reasons that there's so many predatory vendors out there who'll who'll promise you to make you a best seller, and anyone who says that, I instantly go, don't believe them. It's not doesn't work that way, because it is different per writer, and it's different per book, even for each writer, and it's different based on the audience. And so I. It's, you know, captivating to believe there's going to be like this one formula, but if you turn it around and see it the other way around, that says there is no one right thing to do. It actually says you can do what brings you joy instead of doing all the things someone told you to do.
And this is one of the things I really encourage the writers of my class to think about is like, what brings you joy and what drains you in the marketing domain, and like, do the things that bring you joy, because no one even knows what works anyway half the time. So why go do the stuff people are telling you to do that you hate.
So if you hate sitting at a table at a book fair, don't do book fairs if you like that. I actually know several authors who love that because they love chatting with real life people, as opposed to this kind of amorphous, not real social media world, yeah, palettes waving there. So like, like, if that brings you joy and nurtures you and will keep you going, do it. Do more of it. Do less of the other stuff.
On the other hand, if you know you love being on social media, and that's what you know floats your boat, do more of that and do less of the other stuff. And so I think it's actually freeing when you realize there is no formula for what works, to find your path, for what you can do long term that will sustain and nurture you to your point, Tiffany, and
Tiffany Yates Martin 16:02
examine the premises. Which is what works, what works for what to create an outcome that you might want. You know, we all want to be the New York Times bestseller, counting our big bucks, but that is outside of your control.
And you know, realistically, the odds are very high. So do you want to gear your entire career, your everyday pursuit of what you're doing with your passion, toward this subjective, unlikely outcome over which you truly have no control and no one really knows what works or do you want to keep the focus on the day to day reality that you are living as a as a creative person, as a professional writer. For me, that's so much more important. I joke all the time, but I'm not joking that my worst day at work is still a pretty good day, and it's because every day I so I don't know if your listeners know this, I identify much more as an editor than a writer.
I love to write, but it's fun for me. It's like my side hustle, but editing is my heart, so I've built a business around that, and I get to do it every day. And I used to joke that, oh gosh, my perfect it wasn't even a joke. It was my goal, my perfect world, my perfect career would be if I could write part of the day and then edit the rest of the day. And when I thought about that, I, of course, in my mind, I was thinking, Oh, I'm a New York Times bestseller or whatever, and I'm making all this money, and so I'm hugely successful, and I can afford to split my day.
I realized that was actually what I had already been doing for years. It's what I've always done mornings I write, and then the rest of the day I spend with my editing work. So if I'm already living what, to me, is pretty much the dream. What is it that I'm striving for that's going to make me feel frustrated or inadequate or powerless, and why would I do that to myself when I'm already content and living a good, creative life? I think that's what we lose sight of in this in this chase for whatever our holy grail is.
Paulette Stout 18:02
I think that's a really important point, because that speaks to like, what how do we define success? What does success be into? You and I, we were on our group call on Thursdays and y'all, I encourage you to come if you are interested. You know, where we had this whole section, you know, this whole conversation.
I realized that while I have, you know, kind of annual goals. I kind of hadn't created a goal for myself for my writing career. So you talk about that in the book. So I love you to just dive into for a couple minutes. Here talk about the three core elements of you know, how we define success, that you know, the why we write, the what we want and the what we value from the book. So
Tiffany Yates Martin 18:39
again, this is the foundation of all of it. So I love that you asked this, why we write is just that basic. When I talk with authors about like in an editing process, we talk about finding what drives their characters. It's deeper than goal and motivation. It's what's pushing them forward at a real core level, and that's what I mean by it with this. Why did we all want to be writers did was it because you thought you were going to be rich and famous? Probably not, hopefully not, since that's far from the usual reality, I think most of us got into this for whatever reason.
We love language, we love story, words. We have these vivid, you know, imaginations and worlds in our head, and we wanted to put them on paper. We wanted to share them with somebody. We wanted to be able to express ourselves fully, to figure out what we thought about things, whatever that core drive is, that's the first thing to identify, because that's that's your engine. That's the thing that's going to keep you going.
Because what I'm starting to see, and one of the reasons I wrote this book, is that publishing is getting more complex and more challenging, and it can feel overwhelming, and I'm starting to see authors talk about it, not feeling worth it, and leaving this thing they love.
So I think we have to remember that first of all, and then what you want is the goals that we're talking. About, and that's great. Like I'm not saying go up into your little attic retreat and write for the sheer joy of writing. Everybody deserves to share their writing, to want to have it appreciated, to make money for it.
Every artist should have that in a perfect world which we are not living in. So these things that you want out of your career evaluate whether they are outcomes, which are things that are outside of your control, or are they factors within your control. So for example, let's say you want to be a full time author making your living from writing great you decide to do that as an indie pub author because it gives you more control. Great.
Now let's think about exactly what that's going to entail for you. You guys probably know if you're going to make a living at it, you need to produce at least one book a year, probably more. You need to put a lot of time into marketing. You need to put a lot of money into marketing. You need to continually produce books. You need to factor in all kinds of subjective things you cannot control, like a pandemic, or like, you know, sale, the market changing, or sale, your sales going up and down, or the algorithms changing.
When you really think about what that looks like in your day to day life, you know, when you say, I want to be a full time writer, supporting myself with my writing, are you envisioning sitting at your desk for eight hours creating so that you can do that, or are you envisioning the truth of what that goal requires, which is, you know, however much time for writing, however much time for marketing, all the business you have to run, the money you have to put into it, the relentless churn of it. Not to denigrate that, because I think it works for a lot of writers, but it also doesn't for a lot of writers. Is it right for you or not? So clearly define what you want and then what you value. That starts with our core values.
So for me, it's like freedom and security and autonomy. These are probably my number one values. So that is why, for 30 years as an editor, I have always been freelance because I wanted the freedom and autonomy, but I also needed security, and freelance, traditionally, does not necessarily offer that. That's why I work so hard on the business side of my business, and I have lots of fingers and lots of pies and multiple income streams, and I happen to enjoy the business side of it, so that works for me.
But then beyond the core values, you know, art is important in our lives, but it's not our whole life. And I think it's easy to lose sight of everything else. So amid all of that, that you're thinking, what do I want my day to day life to look like? What about the people that you care about and your pets and your other pursuits, if you have hobbies or interests, if you want to travel, if you just want downtime, you also have to factor in what of my goals will allow me to also maintain those values.
And once you know all of that, it may be in fact that writing full time is not what you want to do, because the costs in these other areas that you value are too high. So then you decide, oh, okay, so I need to make a living in another way. That means a day job, which is kind of a dirty word for people who say they want to support themselves from their art. But for me, it's, it's freedom, you know, it liberates you to be able to pursue your art on your own terms, without being a slave to all those things I was just talking about that that are required if you're going to actually make a living from your writing that may or may not fit your values. That was a really long that makes sense?
Paulette Stout 23:27
No, it was great. It was great. And I think that there's another piece of this whole goal, because goals shift over time. You may have a goal at one point in time, and then when maybe, like some of what you're talking about, you experience the realities of the goal. You know, maybe you question whether that's right. So talk a little bit about that step of like periodically reassessing, because sometimes I apply to our author lives in our marketing.
Tiffany Yates Martin 23:56
Oh, good question. I think sometimes we don't remember to reevaluate, and so we're still operating under these goals that we thought we had without reassessing and realizing, Wait, do these still fit what I want out of my life?
People change, and your circumstances change, and frankly, the market changes, and we evolve as artists and our goals might shift. So because those things change and evolve, we have to decide whether the things we once wanted or thought we wanted still are. And then that applies to marketing. I think similarly, because you like, you may not love like, Okay, here's an example. I think a bunch of people really enjoyed Twitter, and then it became, you know, this demon hellhole.
And now a lot of people have had to reevaluate, is that still where I want to put my energy? Is social media still where I want to put my energy as we gain more and more information about, you know, some of the pros and cons of using it for my own business? You know, I'm a dinosaur.
So I started with red pencils and actual hard copy and doing all my fact checking in the library, in the ref at the reference desk. So my whole business changed with the Internet. It changed with electronic publishing. It changed with indie pub. Suddenly my I had to change my business model. Again, the pandemic changed my business model. That was when I started doing more online teaching. I have a recent development that I did not expect that's about to change my business model again, so I have to constantly reevaluate what do I want now?
I actually write down a mission statement, which I keep in a file, and I revisit it at least once a year and determine whether this is still what I want out of my career, and if it is, are the things I'm doing in my business plan still effective in helping me achieve that, and if they're not, how can I change that?
So we don't want to get locked into, you know, a system that may be one of the things. And you guys can speak to this much more knowledgeably than I can, because marketing isn't my field of expertise, but I know that a lot of authors were having a great deal of success on Amazon with Amazon ads and Facebook ads. And then I was hearing from authors that suddenly it seemed like all the algorithms changed, and what was working didn't work anymore. If you just keep doing the same thing you were doing without taking that into account. That does affect your marketing and the success you're having.
Lainey Cameron 26:20
Like, go with the Twitter example. Like so many authors built this huge following on Twitter, right? Some authors have, you know, 50, 60,000 followers on Twitter, and they've spent, you know, a decade building that. And then, like you said, Twitter becomes a cesspit, and it's no longer the right place to reach readers, potentially. And wow, think of the word put into that now they're pretty done, right?
And I'm going to bridge from here into a question about resiliency, because it's a really good example of like you put a decade into building something that was your author platform, and potentially right, because the algorithm changes on Amazon, or because Twitter gets bought by Elon Musk, or 100 other things can happen. This thing that you thought was wonderful for you is no longer wonderful and maybe falls apart, right? And it happens to us all the time.
Publishers don't pick us up for the second the third book, a book doesn't do as well as we thought it well it would. I mean all kinds of things like, how do we build the resiliency? Because I know it's a chapter in the book here, so I'm feeding you a chapter in the book that you can talk about, how do we build the resiliency to keep going in those scenarios? And I loved what you had to say. Is why I'm asking this question.
Tiffany Yates Martin 27:26
It's actually the focus of the whole book, honestly. I mean, this is seriously, this is why I wrote it, because resiliency is the core skill. It is the Uber skill that an author has to have if you want to do this for a living and be successful however you define that, and be happy and sustain it for as long as you want to do it. So everything in it is designed to help you develop resiliency.
With the example we were just talking about, like this crazy unforeseen thing happens with where you have built up a huge following. One of the keys is that what we're talking about about being careful about defining success through metrics you do not have any influence over, and that's one of them. It's another one of the reasons, actually, that I really went all in with my blog is because I thought I do have some measure of control over that, and it's not going to just disappear, so I can slowly build up my following there, and I know it's going to stay right there. That's a very specific example.
But in general, I joke all the time I have a girlfriend and I we talk about relationships, and I always say, you know, I think the key to a happy relationship is low expectations, which which sounds awful, but I mean it in a great way, like with our writing careers, if we're putting those high expectations on all these factors we can't control, I think 99 times out of 100 most of us can't help but be disappointed and disheartened because of the odds in this business of that kind of Lightning in a Bottle success.
But if we keep our expectations more realistic, and we kind of live lightly within them. It makes us quicker to be able to adjust. So this thing that's happening in my career that I did not foresee, that came sort of unexpectedly. It threw me honestly, and I think we have to give ourselves, Lainey, I love that you used the word grace earlier. We have to give ourselves the grace to acknowledge that Am I allowed to curse? I really want to, but I want me to. Should get hard in this career, right?
It gets hard a lot, and I think we have to be realistic about acknowledging that, and also be kind and give ourselves the grace of feeling that. So I did spend a couple of days just, I won't say, spinning out, because I've learned to have faith in the fact that I'm going to be okay. I don't know how maybe yet I do now with this thing, but whatever it is that has happened to me, I've learned to have faith that I'm going to figure this out. I've adapted my entire career to stay alive. Change or die, you're not going to nothing. Stay. The same.
So if I expect that, that's really helpful, defining my life and my success by my own metrics, rather than through the lens of other people's expectations or judgments or opinions is really helpful. Learning to whether criticism and rejection is helpful, the demons I talk about a lot, all those internal obstacles, if you can learn how to cope with those that is part of being resistant or resilient, and then just really learning to adapt, I think, is, is the most important thing, realizing that life is change and and there's no controlling that, and so you can roll with that, or you can push against the tide, and it's going to roll right over you.
Paulette Stout 30:45
So I had a question, because it feels like all of those things requires us to kind of look inside, like you were talking about earlier, into ourselves. So having that foundation of, why am I doing this? What is my purpose? When you go through all those steps you were just talking about to build resiliency. You can kind of frame it up, and hopefully you'll land up on the plus side of the scale when you're, you know, evaluating all these different factors that happen in your life. Is that kind of the idea of, of what you were talking about in the book, definitely that it comes from internal satisfactions.
Tiffany Yates Martin 31:15
Yes, because that is, that's it goes back to the you know what drives you, if you can keep coming back to that, that's where the strength is. That's where your center is.
Lainey Cameron 31:29
I'm a big fan of and the one thought that came across in the little book called Don't sweat the small stuff is, if you accept that everything is temporary, and everything and everyone is only in your life for a certain amount of time. It actually helps a lot. When things don't happen, right? They go away. You lose a person, you lose a friendship, you lose a Twitter following, whatever it is like if you kind of build your life on the premise that almost everything is temporary, it actually kind of just accept that it's going to be temporary no matter how much you love it. It's temporary that beautiful dish on the countertop that you are in love with at some point will fall off the countertop and break potentially.
So if you expect that, like I'm loving it today, but I know that it won't be there forever, it actually makes things a little bit easier. It's just it's a different concept. Not everybody can live that way, but it actually helped me to guess accept that most things are going to be temporary, and I appreciate them more for the fact that I have them right now, but I don't expect that they'll be there forever no matter what I think.
Tiffany Yates Martin 32:26
I think you're dead, right. And I think we can all learn that skill, all the skills in this you know, it may not come naturally to any of us, but they're all learnable. And what you're saying, I think, is an incredibly healthy outlook. I mean, if you think about just anything in life right now, not to get political, but I know a lot of people are concerned about democracy. When I get all antsy about it, I think about the fact that republics and democracies have risen and fallen throughout history.
I hope that this is not our moment. You know that ours falls, but that is one of those things we cannot control. What is within our control is our day to day life, and how we find contentment, joy, happiness, despite changes happening around us that may or not may not be good for us in our minds. But also, there's two things about that.
One is if the good things, if you think about them as ephemeral, then it also helps you think about the bad things as a femoral maybe you, you know this is a setback, but it's just for now, and this is just a low point, just like in our stories, right? It's ups and downs, and we're going to we're going to get through this.
Paulette Stout 33:35
I just learned something about myself in this moment. So it's I know, like, I run my Facebook ads and I kind of fix the phone. I just wanted to be awesome forever. You know, it never, you know it never is. It's got, you know, it's got a little expiration date that's like, milk ish. And I always feel like some I know they're going to tank, but I always feel like frustrated and surprised. So if I just kind of change that mindset of don't get frustrated, you know, it's going to happen, so that when that happens, you can just kind of roll through it, versus being all frustrated and kind of aggravated, then you're more resilient
Tiffany Yates Martin 34:12
I joke about that. I work out and I do it. I do it the minimum amount possible, because I don't enjoy it, but I enjoy the results. So twice a week, I work out with a personal trainer, and I have gotten stronger, literally at my age, I've gotten stronger than I've ever been in my life, and probably more fit than I've ever been in my life. But I also joke sometimes with my trainer, oh, my God, why can't we just get to that point and then I can stop, but you can't, right? Because the minute I stop, I'm going to lose all that progress. So if you think about it as something like that, or vacuuming, which also vexes me, I'm like, can't I just vacuum once? And it's vacuumed forever, but you can't. Life has changed, and the more we can accept that, I think the more resilient we can be in our careers.
Lainey Cameron 34:56
So I love also in the book that. Talk about the concept of finding your Wendy. What is your Wendy? You talk to our listeners here about who is Wendy? What is your Wendy?
Paulette Stout 35:07
Wendy, I love that.
Lainey Cameron 35:12
Find your Wendy. Where's your Wendy. What is your Wendy?
Tiffany Yates Martin 35:16
Wendy has become a little bit of a kind of a moderate celebrity, at least in my circles. So in the neighborhood behind me, this woman, there's a mannequin in her front yard, and she dresses it in crazy, fashionable outfits, and she'll stage little scenes for her. Like one day she she had a washing machine and she was doing laundry, and there's a chandelier and a table, and sometimes she's having a nice, fancy dinner, and she, unfortunately, Wendy, just moved on to greener pastures.
She lost a hand in a very unfortunate accident, and she decided she had to move on to another adventure. And so she was in the front yard with a suitcase and a nice note to the neighbors, just talking about, you know, some of you hated me, and some of you enjoyed me, but I've had a great time, and it's time for me to have another adventure.
So I started writing about her, because I talked to, I call her her mother, the woman who put her there. And she was telling me that she found her at a yard sale, and she started putting her in her own clothes, and then she started, you know, going and buying outfits for her, and then she did handmade outfits for her, and it just became this avenue of creativity for her that she was putting so much effort and time into for no reason other than her own enjoyment of it and those of the neighbors who enjoyed it like she brightened my day every day.
I could not wait to go see what she was wearing. She made me laugh. She was so incongruous. I thought it was wonderful that, to me, is the core of what draws most of us into this, that if we can stay in touch with what our Wendy is, that's our superpower.
Lainey Cameron 36:53
I love it. And actually, people in the chat, like Su Lierz was saying earlier, how fabulous and helpful this is, but she was also asking, How is Wendy doing? What happened? What was the end of the story? So I'm glad that you I'm glad that you shared that.
Tiffany Yates Martin 37:04
Next week in the blog post, there's a new Wendy in the neighborhood, so not a mannequin. Same feeling of just creativity for the sheer love and challenge, even when it's hard, you know, you just do it because it's joyful and it stretches you, and you get to connect with other people who also get it.
Lainey Cameron 37:26
Wait a way to hook us in storytelling, about to wait,
Paulette Stout 37:34
because every like your neighbor must have, I'm sorry, sorry.
Tiffany Yates Martin 37:37
No, go ahead.
Paulette Stout 37:39
I feel like the neighbor must have read your book, because, like, she got to a point where it was enough, you know, for that Wendy and she made the choice to say no. And you talk about that in the book. You talk about saying no, the importance of that. So talk, talk to a little bit about why that is so important.
Tiffany Yates Martin 37:56
You have just inspired another blog post where I want to go talk to Wendy's mom about why Wendy moved on, that's such a great point. So no is important, because I think this is a business where we are so often waiting for the yes that it does make us feel like we're constantly begging, rather than in control of our own careers. We're hoping someone will if we're going a traditional route.
We're hoping an agent will say yes to us. We're hoping a publisher will say yes to us, no matter what path we choose. We're hoping readers say yes. Reviewers say yes. They you know, their wallets say yes to us. We want all these outcomes to give us the yes, the NOS are where our autonomy lies.
That's what lets us take agency over and shape our careers the way we want them to look. So the good nos are the ones that allow us that agency. So it's saying, It's like saying no to a publishing path that doesn't allow you to conduct your career along with your goals and values. So we talked about, maybe you want more control than Trad pub. So it's saying no to that, or maybe you want, you want less work than indie pub. So it's saying no to that and saying, Oh, I'm okay with the trade offs. Maybe it's no to external mandates that don't serve us.
Like a lot of authors are often asked to write under a pen name if their sales start to flag or to change genres. If you don't want to do that, don't. If you don't want to do aggressive marketing, don't if you don't want to do social media platform building, you don't have to do any of that. Even saying no to things like finishing a manuscript that maybe you've lost your spark for. That's healthy if you're if you don't want to write it anymore, don't write it anymore if you need to take a break altogether, that's a healthy no too say no to writing for a while, saying no to commitments you aren't passionate about all that's good nos that help you take agency.
But there are bad nos, and those are the ones we make out of fear. And that's stuff like, No, I'm not going to try this story or this genre because I've never written in it before, or I don't know if I can pull it off. Do. No, I'm not submitting this because I don't think it's good enough to whoever, agent, publisher, critique group, even, no, I'm not going to stretch myself because, you know, it's out of my comfort zone, or it's unfamiliar, or I'm not that good, or No to writing the book that you really want to write because you worry it's not marketable, or you're too old to start, so you have to determine what are the good nos that are healthy for you, what are the bad nos that are not and then figure out how to actually say it. No is a hard thing to say for us, because we're in a yes business.
When we finally get the yes, it's like, oh, sure, whatever, but we like, maybe the terms of this contract you're being offered are not that great, May and they're not serving you, or maybe there's a time commitment for something you're saying yes to that that you don't really want to make, or they're not paying you what you think it's worth. So then make an actual like the first thing I do is I take a beat before when I'm asked to do anything and I y'all, I built a career out of being the Yes girl, because as a freelancer, that's how you start to get the security that I wanted. So I had to learn to say no when I started to get so busy.
So the first thing I do is take a breath. I don't answer right away. Then I do a gut check. Do I actually want to do this? I have an actual, literal printed priority list that a friend encouraged me to make and I write down I have written down, in order of importance to me what I want to give my time and energy to. So when I'm asked something, I literally go, pull up that list, and I go, where does this fall on the list? What kind of time do I have to dedicate to it? And then let go of the fear of saying no as far as retraction or scarcity, one reason, for example, I'll hear authors say that they're scared to negotiate or scared to ask questions about an agent who is offered to represent them is because there's almost a fear that they will change their minds.
But Jason Stanford is the co author of a book called forget the Alamo, and I interviewed him for my how writers revise feature, and he said something I loved about negotiating, because he and his co authors were made an offer for that book, and then they negotiated double the offer. He said they're not going to fire you. They've already told you they want to hire you, so they have clearly indicated they want you. In a case like that, the offer is made, the opportunity is offered. Don't let a false sense of urgency or scarcity make you say yes to something before you've given it consideration as far as does it fit what you want your values?
Paulette Stout 42:37
Yeah, and I'm not going to give the story away, because you have to go by Tiffany's book, which comes out on October 15th, by the way, but she has a great story in there about a no that she chose that turned into an amazing yes afterwards. So, but you have to go buy the book to go read that. I know. Hey, I'm marketer girl, that's how it goes.
So take a quick pause right here, just to kind of acknowledge our amazing sponsor, who is Lillian Sue, PR coach and publicist extraordinary. I know that Lillian, you know, is part of love of laineys course, and she does, you know, a segment on PR. And I'm actually really excited to dig in, because I have my book coming out, and I have some ideas for some PR pitching. So I'm going to go dig into Lilian’s book and do that.
But she does amazing…she helps you unlock the superpowers behind people's stories, to push past limiting beliefs, you know, using tools, resources and knowledge to launch successful PR campaigns and achieve, you know, sales and platform building, then, you know, maybe more than you thought you have.
She also does one on one coaching, and she gives authors the personalized support you need to, kind of go out and do all the PR stuff on your own. I'm not sure, Lainey, if you have anything you wanted to add there,
Lainey Cameron 43:57
No, I think you did the fabulous one while my computer glitched and blew up on me and I had to reboot it together.
Paulette Stout 44:05
We didn't even mention it. You just blew your cover,
Lainey Cameron 44:08
Sorry. Well, you just seamlessly went with it.
Tiffany Yates Martin 44:11
That was a perfect entrance time. I was very impressed with that you like, came back on camera holding the book pretty much.
Lainey Cameron 44:16
We're just really grateful for to Lillian for being our sponsor, because as a new podcast, this is just our I don't know. Is this our fifth or sixth episode here Paulette,
Paulette Stout
Think it’s six, number six.
Lainey Cameron
So as a new podcast, it's really wonderful that we have partners already who want to work with us and want to be associated with the brand and talk to the writers who are here. And we are very thoughtful about our sponsors. In fact, if you're interested in being a sponsor for the future, do reach out to me or palette, but our take is we're not going to promote anything we don't believe in.
So we're not going to put anything on any sponsor on the podcast that we haven't even used the product. Either use the product or the service ourselves, or would be willing to right? Because there are so many scams out there and so many services that take advantage of authors, which is one of the topics we're going to talk about in this last segment here. But I think first there was a question you wanted to ask Paulette about progress?
Paulette Stout 45:07
Yes. For Tiffany, yes. So back to the interview. Also we talk about in the book, paying attention to your progress. So can you share how that might show up for people in their marketing efforts?
Tiffany Yates Martin 45:24
Yeah, I think it's pretty much endemic to the whole of a writing career. Think we don't remember to look how far we've come, and so we get discouraged with our with where we are, without realizing how much we've actually accomplished.
That's easy to look at in your writing, I think, and I talk about that in the book, but with your marketing, I think it's the same, like, for example, I'm guilty of this myself. I I was looking at my followers, and I've, I don't know, several 1000 subscribers to my blog. It's not huge, but it steadily grows. And I love that, and they're very engaged, and that's what's important to me. And so every now and then, I'm like, Well, why isn't it growing faster? Why isn't it more and then I think about when I started and I had zero followers, and I didn't even know how you got followers, and then I started to get, you know, I had 100. And 100 was such a big metric for me, and then 1000 was such a big metric for me, and you forget to look at that. But also I think we don't.
It's easy to get caught up in numbers like that, and instead, we don't look at the engagement, the super fans, you know, the people who are really creating this day to day reality I was talking about that makes your work and your career and your life meaningful and satisfying to you. And so I have a very engaged community like I get, I regularly get something like a 65 or 68% open rate, and click through rate, and I get a lot of engagement and comments, and I get to meet a lot of these people when I go to conferences. And so this writing community that's built around it is very supportive and active and vibrant, and that's something I think it can be easy to overlook in your marketing.
Yeah, Lainey, you probably have like, well, I know that you are, you both are the marketing gurus, and so I think you probably can speak more to how the bar moves. And we have to sort of periodically reevaluate.
Lainey Cameron 47:21
That was that was me raising my hand for Paulette to say, Oh, I've got something to say on this after Tiffany finishes. I didn't mean to cut you off. Yeah, I was hand signals.
Lainey Cameron 47:30
I know. Well, you know, it's interesting, because you're talking about this idea of paying attention to progress. And just last night, palette and I were both on my weekly writers support group that I host on Zoom, and if anyone's interested, I'll put the links online so you can find that as well on the episode page. But one of the things we were talking about, and I was thinking about last night, is this idea of comparing forward versus comparing backwards, and like we are making progress, and we tend to compare ourselves with the people who are farther ahead than us, right?
So I've got one book out. It's done great. So now I'm comparing myself to palette who has three or four or five books. So I don't know what is it this week, it keeps going up. But like, I'm comparing forward to the person who has more books and a bigger following and is more successful and is a bigger author. But like, I should be comparing backwards is the point Tiffany makes in her book to me five years ago, who didn't even have a book in the world, who had no following, who wasn't even Lainey Cameron, who hadn't decided her pen name yet, okay, eight years ago, like, that's what I should be comparing to, right? The me now versus the me then, not the me now, versus someone else who's on a different journey.
And I think it is really easy to compare ourselves to other people, and to compare forward to people who are maybe farther along on the journey or on a different journey to us, as opposed to comparing to our own progress from where we used to be X number of months, days, weeks ago. So I don't know to Tiffany, does that make sense?
Tiffany Yates Martin 48:49
Yeah, I think they both have value. Like there is a good side to comparison. It can be the thing that inspires us, that teaches us, that drives us to get better that motivates us, and I, and I think all that's great, but I do think I love your point, because I completely agree with it that we don't want to define our our satisfaction and our success by what we haven't done yet. I think it's much more productive to define it by what we have done, righ?
Lainey Cameron 49:18
Right. And then you were talking about community, which is a big deal, right? Like, Paulette and I do this, someone was asking us last night also, like, do you do this because it sells books? And we were kind of laughing, because we're like, No, we do this because we want to help other authors. Like, there are 100 other things that we could do for what it's a sell books. But you talked about community and building your network, versus building your community versus your network. Can you talk a little bit about what you meant by that, community versus network?
Tiffany Yates Martin 49:44
Yeah, now, so building a network is really important in this business, because it's a small business, and it's one where everybody is sort of, you know, we're interconnected, and the and connections are not insignificant in this business. Access is not. Insignificant. Somebody who mentors you is not insignificant. But I think if we come at it, networking has an ooky vibe to most of us, because I think it treats people as commodities. So building community is is exactly that my husband jokes, I say this in the book, that when, whenever we move to a new neighborhood, he jokes that I want to bring them casseroles, because I do. It's like a community is incredibly important to me, but I just build it really slowly, one person at a time, by giving before I ask for anything, before I even think about asking. You know, I'm just getting to know people for the sake of getting to know them.
As a writer. It's because this is a really, can be a really isolating and discouraging business. And so you're finding your people who get your struggles, and there's so much value and support and encouragement in that commiseration has a huge value in this business. So all that's important treat people as people, not commodities, be genuine. Give more than you get. I love that you said that you don't do this to sell books. People ask me a lot, how do you because a lot of what I do on my website, there's a ton of free resources, all these downloadable guides. I mentor other editors. Sometimes I will always take time to talk to an author. I will always take time to talk to a fellow editor.
The blog, of course, is free. I do do a lot of things that are just gives, but it's not because I have this. I mean, will it help my I don't know, recognizability, and maybe to sell books or classes, sure, I guess it will. But that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because that's the outreach that helps my work feel rewarding, helps me feel connected, helps me know what the hell to even offer. You know what I mean? Like, if I'm not in touch with the writing community, how do I know?
But you have to find, as with everything we're talking about, you have to find what works for you. It may not be organic for you to do social media, so don't go to a conference, join ally, or women's fiction writers, or Science Fiction Writers of America, or whatever Writers Group appeals to you. Write fan letters to authors, write reviews for them, join a critique group. Do whatever you can to be a part of your community, a contributing part of your community, and people will be there for you. The story I tell in the book is all these neighbors. I spent years just getting to know them for no reason other than we're neighbors and I want to and we all do nice things for each other. We buy your kids cookies and pick up your mail and pick up your garbage cans when you're not home, whatever it is, just little dumb things.
And then we had an actual crisis in the neighborhood, and we had to organize. And it went really quickly, and I found all these receptive people who knew who I was and who trusted me, who were willing to sign on and pitch in so that we could solve this issue in a very quick and decisive way, which never would have happened without all those years of community building.
So it does come back to you. I really believe that what you put out in the world comes to you, but you can't look at it as I'm doing this so that something comes back to me. It's not quid pro quo. I hope you, I hope all of us will always feel we're actually giving more than we're getting. But I can tell you, like one story I told with the last book Intuitive Editing, I had a ridiculous number of blurbs for that. I don't I don't even know how many, but it was something stupid like 30.
And it was people, you know, big asks all the way down to everyone you know that I was working with at the time. And I did it because I thought, If I'm lucky, I'm maybe going to get 10% of people say yes. Every single person I asked said, Yes. I get like, I'm getting emotional right now telling you this because I can't, I couldn't believe it. I can't believe it now, but I think, I hope that's what we're building for ourselves by being contributing members of our community. Yeah,
Lainey Cameron 53:58
one of the, one of the things I always recommend you were talking about, like different associations, is find a volunteer role, right? If you're very early in your author career and your book is, you know, years from coming out and you're still working on your first draft, that's the time to volunteer, because that's going to be an opportunity to for you to meet and interact with other authors who are at different stages in the journey, and they will absolutely remember who you are and that you volunteered and that you helped out when you were able to right.
Maybe later in your career, you won't be able to do that in the same way, or you'll find different ways to contribute. But I think early on, those associations of being a volunteer, even if it's just the person who puts together the newsletter or the person who you know tracks a Google Sheet, even if it's in the background, people will get to know you through that context, and it's really worthwhile. And then
Tiffany Yates Martin 54:41
you've built all these incredible connections too, not and again, that's not the purpose that you're doing it for, but those people are going to help you in your career. There are going to be support and connections that you need to have, and you've already given, you've already given back something, so they're going to want to help you. Mm.
Paulette Stout 54:59
Yes, for sure. And so it's interesting, because there's always talking about community, but sometimes you need to go beyond community, from like, a marketing perspective, especially, you know, you might have to, like, pay money for something. Yeah, we always try to avoid that as much as possible. But can you talk a little bit about, like, how to decide when it's worth, you know, spending money, and especially as that kind of relates to some marketing decisions people may have about some of those choices. Yeah,
Tiffany Yates Martin 55:29
I just wrote about this too, because I've never seen anything like the services that have services and goods that have grown up around authors, as I said earlier, because it's easy to sell things to people who want a dream very badly. And there's nothing wrong with that, because I think there's a lot of great services out there, and there's a lot that we we actually may need, but I think we have to decide what that is and approach it very rationally from a business standpoint, not a not a heart standpoint. This is your business, and so you have to first decide what you want versus what you need. So that could be things like your education and MFA.
Do you need to hire an editor or a coach? Do you need to hire a designer? Do you need an audio engineer, PR and marketing? Whatever that is, then you have to decide what's worth it using metrics that are specific to you. So that's like your personal goals and desires, your career, business goals, and your needs and wants, which we've all that's what we've been talking about earlier, setting that foundation. What is your financial situation? Don't spend money that you can't afford to spend. That's not worth it. It's not a good ROI in this business, because there is no guarantee you're getting that back. But what do you get out of it? Like, let's say you're hiring an editor. Will that book and that can cost 1000s of dollars? Will that make your book sell to to a publisher? Will it make it a best seller? Nope. Again, we don't know. What does that it's going to be a combination of your skill and hopefully helpful editing and the right breaks and the right marketing and the right publisher and everything, none of which is within your control except you're part of it. But it still might be a worthy investment, because it's it will teach you more about your good at it will teach you more about yourself and your writing and your story than like any MFA in the world, because it's pretty much tailored for you so that might be worth spending to you.
And then also, you want to think about what your time is worth to you, because there's a lot of things. For example, with this book, I've self, indie published both of my books for writers deliberately because I wanted to maintain control of those because, because that's what I can control.
And I spent a pretty good chunk of money on the formatting and the design and a lot of the advertising for it, and the audiobook, which is coming out a month later, by the way, because I don't want to learn how to do those things. I know that I could, but it's like hiring a contractor to do your renovation, as opposed to, you know, could you learn to do all the plumbing and the tile installation. Sure you could. But how long is that going to take you, and is it going to give you what you want, the results you want,
Paulette Stout 58:08
right? Yeah, I just wanted to put one little plug in for professional editors. I know that you're not, they're expensive and they're not within the means of everyone, but if they are, or if you can, you know, exchange, you know, services with someone who has those skills. I highly, highly recommend it is, it is like paying I look at it as an investment in my, my writing career as a it is my, I do not have an MFA, so it is my learning the craft of storytelling and writing. It's very if you're going to invest anywhere. I do believe that editing is for me. You know, editing cover design are kind of like top two for me,
Tiffany Yates Martin 58:43
Yeah, and each of us has to decide what that is. Sorry. Lainey,
Lainey Cameron 58:46
Yeah, no, I was going to do a little plug, plug for how amazing Tiffany is. And not everybody gets to work with Tiffany, because she has very limited developmental editing slots these days. But I was privileged enough, and one of the things that got me is basically like, what did I get out of it? I got feedback on that book. I got feedback that that was in my head for my next book. So now, every time I'm writing, Tiffany is talking to me, and that's hopefully a good edit.
Tiffany Yates Martin 59:11
That's part of what it buys you. I always say that if I'm doing my job right, authors will need me less and less right, because you do these are, I mean, editing, while it's so helpful to have outside eyes, editing is a huge chunk, I would say the major chunk editing and revision of being a writer, those are the skills that we all have to develop as writers. So we do need some objective eyes to help us see what's on the page, because we can't always but I do think we get better and better at bridging that gap and being able to know what's not working, why it's not working, and how to fix that thing.
Lainey Cameron 59:47
So we're gonna we're gonna bridge to our last question in a second. But before I do that, do you want to tell us a little bit about your other book? Because we didn't really mention Intuitive Editing, and we've kind of skimmed across it a couple of times. But people might not be for. Familiar with it. So the book we're talking about today, which is all about your motivation, etc, The Intuitive Author is your second book for writers, but you also have one called Intuitive Editing. Do you want to just say a couple of words about it?
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:00:10
I have my pretty little girl right here. She has a new, slightly new, yeah, I wanted her to match intuitive authors. So we got the little band to match. So this was sort of my career goal book to write because of what we were just talking about. It's perfect segue.
Lainey, thank you, which is that I do think that self editing is a skill not only that writers can learn, but that we have to learn, and it's teachable and it's practical and actionable. So the whole book is broken by chapter by chapter into craft, elements, character, plot, stakes, suspense and tension, momentum, all of it, and every chapter, has a how to find it section, which is what I do as an editor. I just see what's on the page, whether it's working as well as it could. Why not if it's not, and I offer some suggestions for ways to address that problem, leaving the creative decisions up to the author. So that's the how to find it part, and then there's how to fix it, which is the author's part. How do you, once you know what's not working on the page, how do you actually make that how do you tighten that hole up? Or how do you develop that part of the story?
And I've also as sort of an adjunct to the book, but it's a free downloadable on my website, created a very extensive self editing checklist that's just chock full of the kinds of questions I ask as an editor that gives that hopefully teaches you, as an author to take that objective step back from our writing. It's so hard to do because we know the story so well. We're filling it all in in our head. W
e know what we think is on the page, but it helps you take that objective step back and see what's actually on the page and know how to address it.
Lainey Cameron 1:01:44
And there's another great download on your website on how to know if you're ready for a developmental editor, and how to pick the right one, which I send people to all the time, because it is a question like, how do I know who's right for me? And I think you have some great tips in that as well.
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:01:56
That's the get it edited guide, and that's also a free one, and crucial skill also, because a good edit can do more good for your career than almost anything. A bad edit can do more damage.
Lainey Cameron 1:02:06
So we have one last question.
Paulette Stout 1:02:10
Yeah, quickly. Sorry, and it's one thing that I learned, like, when I ended up switching editors, it was sometimes like working styles isn't enough. So don't you don't feel, you know, hesitant to switch if you're feeling like it's not a good fit. Because, you know, there might be someone out there that is a better fit, like my, my first editor refused to speak verbally. Everything had to be in writing. I just, I'm, like, a really verbal person, and you go back and forth an email, it wouldn't work. So, you know, finding the right editor is, yeah, it's really important.
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:02:39
Fit is crucial. Somebody can be the best editor in the world, but if they're, if they don't get you your voice, if they don't work the way that that is helpful for you, it's not going to help you.
Lainey Cameron 1:02:49
So here's our last question, and believe it or not, on a book marketing podcast, our last question is actually not about marketing, because we've talked a lot about, you know, the most important thing is the work, and Paulette and I talk about this all the time, is you don't want to be just doing your marketing and not getting to the writing. And at the end of the day, the writing is what connects with readers, right, right? And so our question is, you know, you met mentioned earlier, it is an interesting moment. Whenever there's a general election in the States, it creates a lot of pressure, and people are on edge, and they're they're stressed, and they're all kinds of adjectives there. What tips do you have for how to deal with staying creative during these troubled times, or any troubled times, or any time when you're feeling stressed and you're maybe not as focused on the work, and how do you still bring yourself to the page in that scenario? So I would just love we wanted to ask you if you had any tips on that.
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:03:35
So I started thinking about this one. The pandemic hit actually, because I started hearing from a bunch of authors that they couldn't write because of everything going on, you know, all the stuff you were just talking about, the mental stress, but also the actual stress of either everybody's here and they're in your junk, or nobody's here and you're incredibly isolated, and people weren't feeling creative, they were scared, they were uncertain, they didn't have toilet paper. And so I just started. That was when I started my first online course, which was born out of the fact that I said, even when you're not writing, there's a lot you can do for your creativity. So one thing is, yes, we want to get back to the page, and I'll talk about that in a second. But if you genuinely are feeling like you need to do some self care, step away and do the self care, but also know that you can still be working on your creativity. What everybody was doing in the pandemic was binge watching stuff. And I said, Well, this is like incredibly creative, because you can sit here and you can analyze what you're seeing the way that an editor would in a story that you didn't create, and now you are internalizing all this stuff when you have the objectivity to do it, that you will bring back to your writing when you start writing again. So give yourself a little grace with that. But also you can remember what writing is for for most of us, which is therapy, comfort, figuring out what we think about things, connecting with other people, you can lean. Into those. I mean, a lot of those feelings, not to sound too rapacious, but here we are. We are all somewhat masochistic, right? As creatives, is gold for the character. Your characters, all those feelings and uncertainties and unrest that you're feeling pinpoint, that spend sink into, that lean into it, like, what does that feel like? How can I how might that affect a character? How is it affecting me? So that's great research, but you can also put those issues into your stories. I think about stuff like The Handmaid's Tale, which was written out of fear for attacks on women's rights. And I'm talking about the original Margaret Atwood's original black Klansmen, or songs, you know war or Marvin Gaye's What's going on, or imagine those were all songs about these disturbing issues that the artists put into the songs. And so they not only helped them, but then they help you connect with other people. They help you find comfort. They help people share those fears and that makes them less horrible. Stay in touch with what's driving you that can be really helpful.
And then don't forget, I don't know if this is helpful when you need the motivation, when you're feeling unrest, but there is such power in story. I mean, frankly, it's why there is so much propaganda, because those things have an influence on people that you can also be a force to illuminate things. You can help people process their pain. You can help them make sense of the senseless, or give a voice to the voiceless. Or you can help create hope. You can change the world.
This is so silly, but I tell this story in Intuitive Editing, and it's like the dead truth the TV show Will and Grace is cited as a major reason that gay marriage became legal, that gay people got the right to be married, because it changed how people saw people, that maybe they had othered in the past, and it just made them normal. You know, it was like, Oh, these are humans, just like everybody, and they deserve all the same rights as anyone else. But it took that art, it took that story, to change people's hearts. So I always find that motivating to sort of go back to what drive I mean, I hate to, like, keep going back to this, but it really is the foundation of everything.
What is driving you when I'm stuck or feeling reluctant, I go back to, why did I want to do this? Whatever this is in the first place, if you're a writer, it's the story for me. Sometimes it's course, creation or writing an article about point of view, which, you know, just rips my brain in half. And I'll just take a step back and go, Wait a minute. Why? What excited me about doing this? What did I want to do? I wanted to make this complicated thing clearer and share that with people and make their writing lives easier. That really helps motivate me to come back to the page no matter how tough things feel.
Paulette Stout 1:07:49
What an inspirational way to wrap up our episodes. Thank you so so much, Tiffany for joining us. Um, if you want to share where people can find you,
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:07:59
Yeah, best place is always my website, foxprint editorial.com, it's where you can get all those downloadables we were just talking about, and my blog and online courses. My books are available there. The new one releases on October 15, which I think will be out by the time this airs. That's The Intuitive Author - how to grow and sustain a happier writing life. And then October 13, oh, I guess it'll be after the fact. Never mind doing a free Sunday sermon with Jane Friedman, which will be up on her YouTube. But it has to do with a lot of these writer demons we've been talking about, and that might be of interest to people as well.
Paulette Stout 1:08:35
Thank you so much. And anyone leveling lives can go listen. So thank you so much for everyone for listening, and we will see you next time.
Tiffany Yates Martin 1:08:44
Thank you all. Thank you both. You.