Episode 108: How to Get Your Book in a Bookstore or Library with Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Nothing excites the imagination of an author more than seeing our books on the shelves of bookstores and libraries.
But how do you get your book in a bookstore or library?
In this episode, we're pleased to welcome Mark Leslie Lefebvre, an author, professional speaker and bookseller with over 30 years of experience, to talk about how to work with book sellers and librarians to get your book noticed and on shelves.
Episode Resources
Stark Reflections Podcast - Mark’s valuable podcast, full of reflections and insights on writing and publishing
How to Check for Publishing Scams:
Writer Beware (best place to check for publishing scams)
Alliance of Independent Authors - a global membership association for self-publishing authors (and also a good place to check for whether a company is scammy)
Resources on Getting into Libraries:
Kelsey Worsham - Written Word Media - How to Get Your Self Published Book Into Libraries
Author Learning Center - How to Get Your Book into Public Libraries and Why it Matters (Includes tips on formatting books to be attractive to bookstores and libraries)
Ilham Alam on Jane Friedman’s blog - 6 Steps to Get Your Self-Published Book Into Libraries (includes library pitch tips and email template)
Books Mentioned
An Author's Guide to Working with Libraries and Bookstores by Mark Leslie Lefebvre (and on Smashwords)
The Story Works Guide to Writing series of craft books by Alida Winternheimer
Paulette Stout’s new novel, What We Give Away (Bold Journeys Book 4) - coming in February 2025
Connect with Mark Leslie Lefebvre:
Full Disclosure: We are part of the Amazon affiliate program, which means Lainey earns a tiny commission (maybe enough for a coffeeif you buy something after clicking through from a link on this website.
Episode Sponsor
Alida Winternheimer, author of The Story Works Guide to Writing series of craft books, is your guide to mastering the art of storytelling.
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Note: next sections are mostly created by AI for your convenience - so please forgive any typos or inaccuracies!
Summary
Paulette Stout and Lainey Cameron discuss strategies for getting books into bookstores and libraries with guest Mark Leslie Lefebvre.
Mark emphasizes the importance of understanding bookstore and library selection criteria, such as local interest and genre popularity.
He advises authors to build relationships with booksellers and librarians, offer workshops, and ensure books are available through wholesalers like Ingram.
Mark also highlights the significance of physical book presence and the pitfalls of Amazon exclusivity. He suggests setting appropriate library prices and leveraging local media and patron demand to increase visibility and sales.
Outline
Mark Leslie Lefebvre's Background and Perspectives
Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his journey from being a bookseller to a writer, emphasizing his experience in the book industry since 1992.
He discusses the importance of understanding what books get placed in bookstores and libraries, and the limitations of physical inventory.
Mark explains the significance of asking what authors and their books can do for libraries and bookstores rather than what they can get from them.
He highlights the value of hand-selling books and the personal relationships built with customers and booksellers.
The Value of Working with Bookstores
Lainey Cameron asks why authors should invest time in working with bookstores, and Mark emphasizes the importance of having books in customers' hands.
Mark shares his saying, "A book in hand is worth two on the shelf," and explains how hand-selling techniques can increase sales.
He recounts his experience as a bookseller and how personal stories and anecdotes from authors can influence book sales.
Mark discusses the importance of building relationships with booksellers and librarians to promote books effectively.
Strategies for Getting Books into Bookstores
Paulette Stout asks about strategies for getting books into bookstores, and Mark explains the consignment model and its benefits.
Mark shares his strategy of ordering author copies through local bookstores to support local businesses and curate relationships.
He discusses the importance of understanding comp authors and comp titles to help booksellers and librarians understand the book's market.
Mark emphasizes the value of local events and how they can help promote books and build relationships with bookstores.
Navigating Bookstore Events and Librarian Relationships
Lainey Cameron asks about building successful bookstore events, and Mark shares his tips for engaging with customers and bookstores.
Mark advises authors to be helpful and knowledgeable about the bookstore's inventory and best-sellers to build positive relationships.
He discusses the importance of promoting events on social media and author newsletters to attract more people.
Mark shares a strategy of negotiating with bookstores to ensure sales targets are met, and the importance of providing value to the bookstore.
Approaching Libraries and Overcoming Prejudices
Paulette Stout asks about mistakes authors make when approaching libraries, and Mark emphasizes the importance of comp titles and local interest.
Mark explains the role of libraries in selling books and the misconception that libraries cannibalize print sales.
He discusses the importance of local media reviews and patron demand in getting books into libraries.
Mark advises authors to be aware of the distribution channels and how they affect the likelihood of successful partnerships with libraries.
Distribution Channels and Library Availability
Lainey Cameron asks about the impact of distribution channels on library availability, and Mark explains the importance of using wholesalers like Ingram.
Mark discusses the limitations of Amazon's print on demand service and the importance of being available through major library distributors.
He emphasizes the need for authors to set appropriate library prices and not to take advantage of the library system.
Mark shares his strategy of offering workshops and talks to libraries to build relationships and promote books.
Handling Success and Excess Copies in Libraries
Maggie Smith asks in the live comments about what libraries do with excess copies of books when demand dies down, and Mark explains the typical lifespan of physical books in libraries.
Mark suggests authors offer to do book club discussions or other events to re-engage with the library and its patrons.
He emphasizes the importance of physical books as walking advertisements and their visibility in the community.
Mark discusses the benefits of having books in libraries and how it can lead to more sales and increased visibility for authors.
Strategies for Approaching Libraries Outside of the Local Area
Paulette Stout asks about strategies for approaching libraries outside of the local area, and Mark advises sending physical copies to libraries.
He suggests looking for connections to the community or specific elements in the book that relate to the library's interests.
Mark emphasizes the importance of building relationships and providing value to the library, even if it's outside of the local area.
He acknowledges the challenges of scaling this type of work and the importance of word of mouth and community engagement.
Final Tips and Encouragement
Lainey Cameron asks for final tips, and Mark emphasizes the importance of understanding the library's needs and providing value.
He advises authors to be persistent and to build relationships with librarians and booksellers to promote their books effectively.
Mark highlights the importance of visibility and how physical books can be powerful marketing tools.
He encourages authors to focus on building a community and providing value to libraries and bookstores to achieve long-term success.
Challenges in the Book Publishing Industry
Lainey Cameron discusses the inefficiencies in the book publishing industry, highlighting issues like wasteful inventory and high return rates.
Lainey questions whether the industry will change in the next decade, seeking Mark Leslie Lefebvre's expert opinion.
Mark Leslie criticizes traditional publishers for not embracing new methods during the pandemic, instead continuing with outdated practices.
The speaker notes a significant increase in library sales during the pandemic, contrasting with publishers' decision to delay book releases.
Impact of the Pandemic on Book Sales
Mark Leslie explains how independent bookstores adapted quickly to the pandemic by shifting to shipping and pick-up services.
Major publishers, however, chose to delay book releases, despite strong online sales.
He expresses skepticism about whether publishers will learn from their mistakes and adapt to new challenges.
The conversation touches on Amazon's role in taking over a significant portion of the book market, to the detriment of publishers.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre's Insights and Projects
Paulette Stout thanks Mark for sharing his expertise and humor during the discussion.
Mark provides information on where to find him online and mentions his recent trivia books on movies like "Christmas Vacation" and "Die Hard."
Mark promotes his book on working with bookstores and libraries, available at a discount during the Smashwords sale.
He encourages listeners to request his book at their local libraries and challenge librarians to stock it.
Transcript
Paulette Stout 0:02
Hello everyone. Welcome to the best of Book Marketing podcast. I am Paulette Stout. I am here with my co host, Lainey Cameron, and we are so pleased today to be talking with you about working with bookstores and libraries. It's a topic that is a constant um conversation in the author community, because these can be channels that are hard to get into no matter how you publish. So we have an amazing guest today, Mark Leslie Lefebvre, and he's going to join us just in a little bit after we do our personal updates. We're going to keep them brief so we don't keep Mark waiting this week, but Lainey, want to dive into yours then I'll do mine.
Lainey Cameron 0:47
Sure. So, I've had a lot going on in my personal life, but I did make it to the end of, kind of this series of chapters of this revision which, oh my goodness, I think I've said it's like my fourth rewrite of this dang book. And so I'm hoping that I'll see the world will see this book, my second book, in 2025 and Paulette and I, you were you and I were just talking about publishing models and my choices. And I think in January's episode, I'll share a little bit more detail of what I'm thinking. But, you know, fingers crossed, I'll see it in the world in 2025.
Paulette Stout 1:17
Very cool. So for me, my big thing is my fourth baby. What we give away has just been finished, and I just ordered all my art copies, and I'm getting those out to reviewers probably in January, working with, starting to work with the audiobook narrator. It's gonna be a little later than I hoped, but that'll probably be out in March, but the book launch of February 4 is underway, and it's just an exciting time. It's finishing the series, so it's a little melancholy, but it's very exciting. I'm starting to get some reader feedback in for people who I sent the book to read early, and it's getting very favorable replies. So hopefully you can add that to your TBR for February 4. So we are going to pivot and welcome Mark in. Mark Leslie is a writer, editor and professional speaker and book nerd with a serious passion for craft beer. He is a published more than 25 books, including thrillers, fiction and non fiction books for authors. He publishes under both Mark Leslie and Mark Leslie. So you can check him out at those two names. He has decades of experience in the book industry, serving as the president of the Canadian Booksellers Association, the director of author relations and self publishing for a Rakuten Kobo, hopefully I got that right, Mark. You'll correct me if that. And he currently serves as the Director of Business Development for draft 2 digital and I just want to make he also hosts the stark reflections on writing and publishing podcasts, which I highly recommend as an aside. Mark is a friend to authors everywhere. He has been extremely generous to me per in my early author career, and I'm very, grateful to welcome Mark. Leslie v to the best of Book Marketing podcast.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 3:05
I am so honored to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Paulette Stout 3:08
Yes, awesome. So we're going to dive right in, just so folks know just what to structure. There's so much to cover in this topic of working with libraries and bookstore. Totally recommend you pick up Mark's book, the author's guide to working with libraries and bookstores. You know, we, you know, solve selfless self promotion. It's a great book, folks. We're not going to be able to cover everything on the show today, as awesome as Mark is, but we have limited time, so listen in and definitely encourage you to join and pick up Mark's book. So first question for you, Mark, you've got such a unique set of experiences over many years of working in the book selling space. What do you think? Can you tell us a bit about your background as a bookseller? Just kind of level set us with, what perspectives you're bringing to everyone today?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 3:57
Yeah, so I mean, I knew from the time I was about 14 when I got my very first rejection, my very first submission. Rejection happened 40 years ago, actually more than 40 now, if I can do the math properly, but it was I knew I wanted to be a writer, and my mom said, better get a good job. And I was like, Well, what kind of job can I get with my English degree? And I ended up going into book selling.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 4:19
And that was in 1992 that was the year my very first short story finally saw prints after years of projections and and so I worked in the industry. And as I was working in the industry as a bookseller, as a writer, I was really paying special attention to what are the books that are selling, and the authors I interacted with and learning what works and what doesn't work from that perspective, because as as passionate as I am about writing and publishing, and I love writing and publishing and all the things that we get to do as authors, both and I am traditionally published and indie published, and I and I accept both. I just signed a traditional contract. But I'm also got three other indie books, works that are going to be coming out in the next six months. So I've got. Lot on the go, and I'm open to both, because I think there's benefits, there's pros and cons for both.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 5:05
But when it comes to bookstores and even even libraries, because that's the topic of this conversation, I think I bring a perspective to authors of what it is to be the person deciding what books get in the bookstore. How did I make those decisions? How did people I've worked with in the industry make those decisions? And why? Why does this book get placed here? And why does another book not get accepted into the store's inventory? Because unlike online catalogs, where you list it, it's there, right? Millions of titles, whatever. There's no physical inventory to speak of it's print on demand, or ebooks, or whatever.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 5:43
A physical location in a bookstore has limitations, not just physical limitations, like they only have so many shelves. Like, when you're when you think about a mall store, you're looking at maybe 5000 10,000 titles, if you're looking at a big box store, and that like a Barnes Noble or Chapters Indigo here in Canada, you're looking at anywhere from 70,000 to 100,000 titles. Okay, that seems like a lot, but you know, any new books get published every year more than that, so they can't have every book, so they have to make those decisions, but they also have an operating budget, and they have to turn their inventory because it is physical inventory, it's retail as much as it's storytelling and magic that happens when when the right book gets into the right readers hands, but it's still it's still retail, it's still a business, so they have to factor all those things into play. So it's important for us authors, as passionate and as excited we can get about our awesome books that we've written, we need to understand. What I like to say is ask, not what your bookstore library can do for you. Ask what you and your book can do for your library or bookstore, because if you're thinking about it that way, you're more often going to run into success.
Lainey Cameron 6:52
I lovethat angle in your book. I read it over the last week, and you know it's I love how human you are in it. We're going to talk more about this, like later, I'm going to ask you a question about why you need to know where the bathroom is, because I thought that was one of the inspired parts in this book, but, and I'll make people wait for the answer on that one.
Lainey Cameron 7:11
But you know, one of the things that struck me so if you're an indie author, it's going to be work, it's going to be energy, it's going to be an ongoing collaboration. In order to have your book and bookstores, it's not as simple. And you make this point wonderfully in the book, right? You don't just turn up with your big, boisterous like, I'm so awesome hat on and tell them to stop your book, right? There's work involved. So why is it worth that collaborative effort to work with bookstores? Like, why should an author put the time into this?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 7:37
I think because the value, and it's kind of funny, because I'm working on a book right now called the book in hand, and another one of my sayings that I've come up with that are readapted from existing phrases. Because I love doing that. I love playing with words. Is is a book in hand is worth two on the shelf. And that's something that I taught my booksellers when I was managing bookstores, is when you can get the book into a customer's hand, they're twice as likely to take it to the cash desk and check it out, as opposed to it staying on the shelf in front of them. And it's a sales technique, technique, and it sounds sleazy or whatever, but it's a sales technique. But the reality of having a bookseller in a physical store, or a librarian who is familiar with you as a person and or your book because you were there doing an event, you were there talking to them, you were there sharing there's some sort of anecdote related to it, and I'll use an example from my own experience. I remember in the last physical bookstore I worked in, I think it was 2011 was the last time I worked in a physical bookstore. I would, you know, have authors come in and do events and stuff, and at the author ratings, the author would share some sort of interesting anecdote about, oh, I wrote this book because I was at my grandma's house and I was sitting in the chair, and as I looked across the lake, and I thought I saw something that gave me this idea.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 9:00
And booksellers attend to these things. They attend to these little stories, these little anecdotes, and they're not just physically putting the book in the customer stand. Somebody may come in and say, Oh, I'm looking for a book in the genre. And then there's, like, you know, probably 100 books right within reach reach that would would satisfy them. But the author met, or the bookseller met the author, or is familiar with I just read the book or whatever, and says,
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 9:25
Oh, and they put the book in the customer's hand and says, this one here, the author was in six months ago, and she shared this amazing story. And then they relay the story so it almost puts the author in the customer's hand. And what is book selling, and what is storytelling in general? It's us as writers connecting intimately with readers, and now we have an advocate or a sales rep who does that. I hand sold books all the time as a bookseller, and hand selling is a thing where you actually a. I even had challenges with my staffs. Like, your very favorite book, that is, your thing is it, don't sell it to just anyone when you find, if you can. And it was like, we had a little tally. It was like, when you find the person that's perfect for your book, or if you know what someone else's favorite book is, and someone comes in and says, Oh, I'm looking for a really good historic romance. And I was like, Well, I don't know any, but, oh my god. Sally over there, I'm going to go introduce you to Sally. She's got a book. It's going to knock your socks off. And that personal relationship, I think, is so worth it. It's hard to get and it's not something you can scale. It's not like, Oh, I'm just going to throw $100,000 at Amazon ads, and now I'm going to make $105,000 it's not scalable in that fashion, but it's way more powerful than that because of that connection that you suddenly have.
Paulette Stout 10:45
It's like, so interesting that physical putting the book in someone's hands. I love that idea. Definitely kind of look to see. When I go to my local bookstore, they actually handed me a book and having me hold it and get, like, attached.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 10:57
Well, they may not, they may not, yeah, but they may, they may tap it on the shelf and say, well, this book here, but again, you're going to want to pull it off the shelf so you can, you want to look at it, right? You want to look at the back and look the freaking tactile experience, and suddenly it's real. It's not a thumbnail on a screen back here, right?
Paulette Stout 11:15
So, so thinking about bookstores kind of like as a channel, like, what are some things that we that authors should keep in mind and or that we should know about the bookstore channel in general. And how do I choose which books to stock? You talked about the limited space and all the other limitations are coming for bookstore. How do they make that decision? And how does and how should we keep that in mind when we're thinking about how we approach bookstores,
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 11:42
it's a combination of their passion for wanting to have the right books to get excited about telling their customers, but also covering their business butts, for lack of a better term. And so the book industry is a consignment based business in general, meaning that ever since, well, 100 years ago, since the Great Depression, 1920s a publisher, like any other retailer, bookstores would buy product, and then if they couldn't sell it, they would liquidate it, which is kind of what happens in virtually every other kind of retailer. But it was the Great Depression, and obviously reading being a luxury, a publisher said, Well, tell you what, because nobody, no, bookstores didn't want to order as much because they couldn't afford to carry the stock.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 12:25
And the publishers that will tell you what you guys can take the stock, and if you don't sell it, so long as it's not damaged, we'll take it back and we'll give you the money back for it was like, oh, no, risk. But that is the way that traditional book industry works, which is one of the reasons why publishers keep so much of the margin from authors is because they have to cover their butts and pay for returns. And returns are the most expensive challenge that can't be controlled in a book and in the book industry, and publishers are purveyors of that risk. So anyone who's traditionally published, that's kind of why.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 12:57
One of the reasons you get so little from a publisher is there, they're covering that cost for you in a certain way. So we as indie authors typically only have access to print on demand and eBook and digital and and I would argue, and I've done this several times. And keep in mind, I've worked in the book industry since 1992 several times I've made my books non returnable. I've given the full discount, and using like Ingram Spark for that, where you can and you can set it at 53% it doesn't have to be 5553 we'll still give it a trade discount.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 13:32
But so Ingram is pocketing a whole bunch of money, and then the 40% goes to the bookstore, right? So when you set 53 the bookstore is really getting 40 and if you said, you know they might get 41 or 42 but 40 is what they're looking for. I have made my books fully returnable. And 20 years ago, when I published my first book, which was self published, and it was print on demand, before all cool kids started doing it, I think I made whatever. I probably made three or $400 off off the sales of that book, but then it cost me $600 in returns, because I got a return. So it's like, yeah, it was happy while it was and then six months later, when the returns came in, I was like, whoa, wait a second, I'm in the hole. Now. What the heck? And recently, a year and a half ago, I got a batch of returns on some of my books that came to about $1,500 US. Fortunately, I'm now in a position where I can eat that loss, because I'm making enough money as a writer.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 14:30
Yes, those books didn't they lost me money, but all the other income I had covered it, so I was fine. But the average author that could, that could cripple their business, that could really destroy their business. So yes, bookstores want books to be returnable, but it's very risky for you to do that, and that's a huge financial risk. And I usually advise by default, authors don't do it. And I know you're going to think, oh, no, no, they're not going to return my book, but they return Stephen King. They return all the. Like, here are some strategies. Okay? If I share a couple strategies that, okay,
Paulette Stout 15:03
I would love that Mark, because we were going to ask you specifically about the return strategies and the percentages. So absolutely, you can dive into that.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 15:10
So a couple strategies I use. Now the other thing I'm going to start with the strategy that works really, really well. And it's not just a strategy, it's a relationship that I have with a local bookseller. I have one here in Waterloo. I had one in in Hamilton as well, the previous city I worked in, where I do have traditionally published books, and I can order them from the publisher, and I can get 40% right discount like a bookstore gets, but then I don't get royalties on those, and then I use those to sell author stock. I order my author copies through my local bookstore.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 15:40
I may only get 20 or 30% off the retail price. The bookstore is making 10 or 20% on those sales. It's a path through pass it through sale. I call up and say, you know right now like Dave, who's the owner manager of local bookstore, and say, Hey, Dave, I need 10 copies of haunted Hamilton. I need 10 copies of haunted hospitals. 10 copies. So he's like, yep, bam, bam, bam. He puts him in his system. He calls me. I go to the back door. He's got my credit card on the phone or whatever I pay for them. I show up. He just, he doesn't even have to unpack the boxes. He just passed through sale. So he makes a better margin. I'm supporting a local business, because every $100 you spend on a local business, the state, the more that money stays in the community than when you when you buy from an online retailer that's not located in that in that community, for example. So that's important. So I'm supporting a local business. I'm getting the he's making some money off that. I'm still getting a margin that I can play with when I resell those books, but also I'll end up still getting a royalty on that because it counts as a sale, and the publisher sees it as a sale through that bookstore, which does get reported to cat, through the cash register, to Globe and Mail, which is a best seller list here in Canada. So so that it kind of benefits me, even though I'm getting less margin, or I'm going to get some of that money back later on. I'm supporting the economy, but I'm also I'm also curating a relationship.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 17:04
So when my most recent book came out, I was just on a radio station, and just before I went on the local radio station, I checked with the bookstore and said, Hey, David, got a new book itself, published units not returnable. It's available from Ingram. You can order it, but tell you what I'll do is I've got stock because I printed it locally here, because I work with a local printer as well, another local business. Can I bring some in on consignment? He said, Yeah, of course. Yeah, bring bring in five. I'll put them on the shelf. I said, Great. So you know, a couple days later when I was on the radio, when the host, I was on the show for half an hour, and he said, Okay, where can people get this book? The first thing I said is, well, here in town, because it's a local radio station. You can go to Wordsworth books in Uptown Waterloo, and they have signed copies. Ironically, I rushed, because I just picked up my stock that morning. I rushed from the radio station to Wordsworth and said, Okay, I just talked about this on the radio. And then I said, and then you can get it on Amazon and other online channels. But I started with that local business, because it's a partnership we have anyway. So he's taken those books on consignment, and the consignment model, which is a physical consignment model, is he gets 40% he sells them. I'm also liable if someone steals one, that's that's out of my pocket, not theirs, right? So if I give them five and one gets stolen, I only paid for the four he sells, and then any that don't sell to come back to me, whatever, just like in the traditional model. So there's there's less risk for the bookstore, although it is still physical, there's labor involved, right? They got a fun book. They had to deal with me, they had to go and fill up paperwork and all that stuff, put it on the shelf, put it in their inventory system, although it's already in their inventory system, because they got that fed through Ingram.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 18:42
But one of the other things I've done with non returnable stocks is that, hey, I'd love to do a signing or an event in your store. My book's available through Ingram. It's a full discount, full trade discount. It's non returnable. If you order in, like, let's say you bring in 50 copies of the book. If you don't sell them all at my event. Can I buy the stock from you? Can you give me, like that staff discount that you would normally give? And that's another strategy of getting them to bring the book in, but then still realizing, okay, whether or not they get sold to a customer or not, I'm going to need author copies, potentially for my because I do a lot of in person events, I'll just buy the stock from the store, and so the store never has to be worried about that stock. So those are a couple strategies you can use.
Paulette Stout 19:27
I love that, because I do have a really good relationship with my local bookseller, silver unicorn, everybody here in Massachusetts, um, and I do confinement with them. And, you know, they have a limited slack and they've been very generous. And even when it doesn't like turnover all the time. They kind of keep them there. So that's, that's a great I love the idea of buying your stock through the local bookseller to kind of establish that relationship. Definitely gold star idea, right there. Um, so we're thinking about turning over in the bookstores. Just, do you think, as a bookseller, do certain genres do better, and is it worthwhile? All kind of pushing it a little bit more some genres over others.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 20:04
Well, I guess it depends on the store, right? So, I mean, there is a, there's a really great indie bookstore in Toronto, Ontario, not far from where I live, called back to Phoenix, and their science fiction store. So no matter how great romance sells, which is still primarily the number one best seller in the universe, the best selling genre. It ain't gonna sell at back of Phoenix. And if it's a mystery bookstore, romances are not gonna sell. So you have to also be aware of the market, right? So for example, this the Wordsworth books doesn't have a horror section, and they carried one of my horror books, but they put it in the same section where they put Stephen King, which is mystery, okay? Because that's not their clientele. Most of their most of their clientele, are not going in there looking for the latest horror novel, except for maybe a big name author or a local guy. So, so I think it's not just understanding what genres sell best. Yeah, you know what genres sell sell the best.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 21:00
By far, romance way, heads and above any other genre, romance readers are the most wonderful people in the universe because they kind of read like three books a day. I got to love them. Thriller and mystery writers tend to be really high up in terms of genres that sell well, because they kind of turn through books, whale readers, etc. Very, very well, other genres as well do well, right? Because you're going to have Die Hard fantasy readers, you're going to have die hard science fiction readers, you're going to have Die Hard contemporary fiction read. So again, what's more important is that bookstore and their clientele. So the other thing that's really important is going to help you with booksellers, is understanding comp authors and comp titles.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 21:42
So that's comparable authors and comparable titles. Indie authors may know them in the term that we always use hostile bots, but in comp it's not. It's very important, particularly for librarians and particularly for booksellers, to associate it with a well known name, not Oh, Mark Leslie does really well. And no, nobody knows Mark Leslie in general, right? Even if Mark Leslie's doing really, really well as an independent author on some platforms or whatever, they've never heard of him, but they've heard of Lee Child, and they've heard of Stephen King, and they've heard of JK Rowling, and they've heard of, you know, I can't even, I'm drawing a blank with Sarah...
Paulette Stout 22:20
Jennifer Weiner, Jodi Piccoult...
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 22:25
You're picking comp authors for some of your titles, right there. So important. It's, I know what you're doing. It's very smart. It's very important for them to be able to associate it, because someone's going to come in and say, I love Jennifer Weiner, and I've read everything she has, but she's traditionally published, so she only does one book a year. Oh my god. Well, tell you what, local author, Paulette, I've got one of her books you're going to love. So, so being able to feed the bookseller with the answer to the question, What am I going to read next? And I really like this kind of book, you need to provide them that, and it's okay to do like I like saying a Venn diagram when I when I pitched, for example, haunted Hamilton, which is a true ghost story book from Hamilton, Ontario.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 23:10
I created a Venn diagram before I did my pitch letter. And this is the same kind of pitch letter you give to a bookseller, or pitch letter that you when you do in your elevator pitch is this book is the one group of people that might like this book are people who like ghost stories, because it's book of ghost stories. And another group of people are people who really like history, because you often can't tell a ghost story without getting into the history of a city and the buildings and stuff like that, especially around Hamilton the war of 1812. Factors prominently in in the tales there, but also people who are very passionate about the City of Hamilton, where, like, they grew up in steel town. That's Canada, steel town here in Pittsburgh, in the US, but steel town Canada Hamilton, and so the ideal reader is dead center in the middle. They love ghost stories. They enjoy history, and they're very proud of their city, and that's the target reader there. So you can pick a genre like they like this kind of book with that. That's why you get movie pitches, which are, it's, you know, what was speed? Speed was pitched as Die Hard on a bus, right? And Die Hard on a or Die Hard Mira, or Die Hard, whatever, all of those things, because it takes something like a pop song that's somewhat familiar, but just a little bit new and a little bit different. And that is a, it's a it's a human trait. For unders. I need to understand a little bit, though, what this is. But now give me that extra element to it, and that's when you give comp titles or accomplish genre comparisons or crossovers. That's something you can arm a bookseller with. Now, not every bookseller is going to not every bookseller is going to take it. You may talk to five different booksellers, and only one of them picks it up, but usually the ones who pick it up, it's because it had a deep and meaningful impression on them, and that's something they're going to be able to relate to the customer. Yeah, and again, there are sales. They become, you know, an freelance salesperson working independently who already has a passion and knowledge of your products.
Paulette Stout 25:13
I saw what you did there. Mark, you worked die hard into the conversation, now.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 25:17
I always work pop culture movies, and if you like Die Hard, I have a book, no.
Lainey Cameron 25:25
Well, one of, one of the things I always talk to my marketing class about is, don't get so caught up on plot like exactly like you're saying with Die Hard. It's more the emotional experience of going on this frantic journey where you're trying to save the world kind of thing, right? And so think about the emotional experience, and compared to an author who offers a similar emotional experience. And so I find that's easier when people think about comps, because if you get really caught up on plot, you're like, well, I need something with ghost stories in this town. It's like, you are the one. There aren't 12 other comps, right? And so I say, like, think emotional experience, and you're more likely to find that comp author.
Lainey Cameron 26:00
And exactly like you say, this author, if you love this author, you're gonna love that author. So let's talk a little bit about bookstore events. Because this is one of those things that I love. Some of the Twitter streams sometimes where people talk about, like, I had an event. Nobody turned up, and everybody kind of pitches in and says, yeah, it happens to all of us.
Lainey Cameron 26:19
And so I'm really interested in your takes on you know, how do you build a successful event? How do you work with a bookstore? And let's make sure we don't forget the bathroom point in here, which I thought was insane, yes.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 26:29
So I have, I have done more than my share of events where nobody showed up. Okay, first, first lesson as a bookseller, sorry, as an author, but as an author, I'm also a bookseller, and this is an important aspect, is I'm there in partnership with whoever is running, managing, working the bookstore to sell the right book to the right customer. And if my book in front of me is not the right book for the right customer, I want to at least be able to ensure the customer has a good experience with me. So a couple things I do when I first get to the bookstore and take a look around, where's the best seller list, look what's being featured, what's again, and if you're not familiar, find out from the booksellers. What are people asking for? What are they so you can learn what's popular. Because when a customer comes into the bookstore, you can be so it's funny, I'm sitting there with haunted Hamilton stack of books.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 27:23
I have a skeleton beside me. There's a bat that said, ghost stories told here I look scary myself. I'm wearing a skull tie. I've got all the paraphernalia that for anyone who's paying attention, should say this guy is an author, and he probably writes scary stories. Customer who walks into the bookstore only sees the thing they're looking for. I gotta pick up a gotta pick up a gift from my son. I just, I know he loves to read Jody Pico. And I just heard a thing on CBC Radio, and they were talking about, they come into the bookstore and the first person they see is me. They don't even see anything other than there's a human there. And they ask, Oh, where's that new book by Jodi pico that was just on CBC Radio. I could be rude. I don't work here, whatever, but why not do a little bit of homework yourself? So I go, Oh yeah, they do Jody Paco book. Because just over, I don't even say, Oh, I'm an author, but I'll help you. Just help them. After they've gotten their answer, the fog goes away, and then they realize, oh, the dude doesn't even work here. Oh, that's cool. And that is suddenly a really positive experience. So he may go, Well, I don't read and horror is not my cup of tea, but they suddenly have a positive impression of me. And then maybe potentially like, well, you know, my sister loves scary stuff. I'm gonna go check out what his books about.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 28:40
So you may have that reciprocity of kindness or whatever this, Oh, someone did me a favor. I'm going to check it out. The other thing, and this is why I say the bathroom. If the bookstore has a washroom, or coffee shop, or whatever it is, find out where it is. And the quickest directions for people, because usually when they ask for it they need and if it's in the mall, like, find out where the ball go, good, just right down there. Just, just the food court on the right. And you'll, you'll see the washrooms right there. And it's the same sort of thing. Somebody came to you and you provided them with a value. So again, somebody comes up says, Hey, tell me about your books. It's like, well, what do you like to read? It's like, well, I really like historic romance. I'm like, Well, I have some history and ghosts, but probably not your cup of tea. You know what, though the romance sections over there, and I bet you one of the staff members can help you, because I don't know much about historic romance, whatever, providing some polite professional information, or where is the best sellers, or where the featured books are, all the remainders the bargain books are just over there, you know? So any of that information you can provide, I think, helps set the scene for a very positive experience for the person who's interacting with you.
Paulette Stout 29:48
Now, do you think some bookstores are like, do they they want guarantee a certain number of sales, or in terms of the negotiating the actual event? Are there things? Yeah, should be keeping. In mind as we're doing that?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 30:01
Great question. So I mean, the first thing that they're going to consider to have you come in, I'm going to backtrack, to have you come in the store, is a it's a lot of work for them, even just setting up an author table and ordering the stock, or even if it's consignment, whatever it is, it's manual labor they don't have to do. So it's extra work for whomever is involved, is that extra work actually going to sell them books? And does this author have a personality that's going to do it? Because they're not going to, well, some of them will, but they're not going to put in all the extra effort. Sometimes the cashiers may say, oh, did you know we have a local author here, and she writes romance, and she's just over there. Oh, no, I didn't, because they didn't even see you, because they walked in and they went straight for what they were looking for. So sometimes they're working collaboratively with you, sometimes they have displays little signs and stuff like that.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 30:51
But the onus is in something you should agree with is, let's both promote this event. So let's find out what's your social media handles. I'm going to share this, I'm going to tag you, I'm going to share some pictures, I'm going to send it out to my author newsletter. And again, my author newsletter. I don't know where everyone lives, but I usually I've had people show up at my book signings and events saying I only live an hour away, and I saw you were doing a signing this Saturday because you sent it out in your newsletter last week. Oh, cool. I'm glad you came. I don't know or maybe so they're in your newsletter because they only buy your ebooks online, but they have a friend who lives in the town, and they're like, Oh, could you go get a copy of Mark's book signed for me? Right? That kind of thing. So you never know. So sending that out to your newsletter is important.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 31:30
I did work do something with a bookstore recently where they normally close at 6pm but they'll stay open for a couple hours and do an event with you, but I had to sign the contract. And I think this is genius. The contract said we need to sell $200 worth of books, not your books, just books in general, just for being open for an extra two hours, and if, if not, you pay the difference. And that was the contract I signed. So I was like, Cool, my job is to make sure they sell $200 worth of books. A couple things I did, I did a door prize, and I bought a couple gift certificates from them, which I paid for after 6pm but then I also, I mean, the other thing too, is, is, that's the other thing too, is, there were enough people coming in some you know, most of the people who were there were there for my event, but there's still the whole stores there, and they could buy books that they want as well. So that that may be a reasonable thing. So if, if a bookstore is hesitant, you can say, Well, hey, let's talk about a number. Let's say our goal is to sell this many books, and if you don't sell this many books, I will give you that difference, that money, and then that way you're both on the hook for it, because, again, they've got to pay. This was an independent bookstore. The Okay, the owners don't have to pay themselves to be there, but they had to pay staff to be there.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 32:45
And then, then you have some time away from their families and their personal lives and stuff like that. So is it? Is it worth their while as well? So that is something to consider when you're looking at an event. How much extra work is this going to be, and are people going to make their money back.
Lainey Cameron 33:02
I love that idea of going later as well, because it's kind of becomes the focus of the bookstore, as opposed to something that's happening on the site. We have two more questions on bookstores, and then we're going to move into libraries. And one of them is actually a question from the audience, Beth, who's watching us live. She said she asked, do these same insights apply if my local store carries mostly used books? Now, obviously it has an impact on the profit for the author, but if you're trying to get your name out there and you're trying to build a presence as an author and gain fans, do you think it's kind of the same for stores that are mostly used books, or is it very different?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 33:39
So it could be used books is a really great crossover to libraries, because I think used bookstores and libraries help you sell more books in general, because the more people who read your books and talk about your books, the more likely you're going to sell wherever they sell. No, in a used bookstore, you don't make money off of that used sale. You might have made money the first time it sold, but not through used bookstore, however different, used bookstores are different. There is a used bookstore back in the in the city where I grew up, who have taken new books on consignment. Yes, 90% of their books are used, but they have some new books here from local authors, right? But that's that business making that decision. So Beth, I can't answer for that particular store. The other thing I've done before is like, Hey, I love your store. I've taken, I've taken, maybe copies that have been slightly damaged because I got them back from consignment. They're a little bit worn, or whatever, some of the returns I've had, or whatever is like, I just bring them to the used bookstore and here you go, 100% margin to put them on the shelf. Because, again, you know, piracy is not, is not my enemy obscurity, as most people have never heard of me.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 34:46
So if my books on a bookstore shelf, and I may never get a dime for it, oh my god, some reader came in, picked up my book, bought it, and potentially, I don't know, maybe reviewed it, or told some friends or whatever, or they're walking around in public because. My book being read in public at a park bench or in a subway or whatever is visible. It's walking advertisement for me, right?
Lainey Cameron 35:08
I love it. I love it. I'm gonna change gears on you just a little before we wrap up the bookstore section and move into libraries. And in your book, you talk several time about times about the idea of shark infested waters, and we're very sensitive of trying to protect our listeners from making dumb choices, because they just don't know. And so can you talk a little bit about, especially in the traditional side of like, selling books, right? Like, I don't mean traditional publishing, I just mean all the options there your hybrids and your vanity presses, etc, etc. Are there any tips you would give people for avoiding those shark infested waters as they go?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 35:45
Your friend, your best friend in the universe, is Writer Beware, by Victoria Strauss. You keep an eye on that website, bookmark it and go check there first. The Alliance of independent authors is also a great resource to find out if people, players in the industry are legit or not. And if you remember, the alliance of independent authors, you can, even you know, reach out and say, Hey, I'm curious as anyone you know.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 36:09
But Writer Beware is publicly open to anyone to go look at. And then the other thing to be to be aware of is, in traditional publishing, no real publisher has to call themselves a real publisher. So that old Hamlet me think the lady doth protest too much. Is so true. Anyone who says we are a real publisher, or we are a traditional publisher, usually is trying to hide something. Penguin, Random House doesn't have to say we're a real publisher. You know how they're a real publisher? They pay authors. That's how they're a real publisher. They pay advances, they pay authors royalties. So so be be leery of anything like that. And then the other thing too, is anyone who's selling services to you, they make their money selling services to authors, not selling books. And so that's the other other thing to consider.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 36:58
I think I was chatting with an author the other day, and they made one of those companies really mad, because I said, Well, look, can you show me which ones in your books are best sellers? And boom. Well, because we don't care, we don't even track sales, because we don't make money off that. We make money selling hopes and dreams to writers. And if it looks too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true people reaching out to you wanting to publish your book. I mean, you know how many times I get phone calls is this kills me. I get phone call from someone who works for Hollywood and wants to turn, wants to turn my book into a TV series. You know what book they they were talking to me about killing it on Kobo, a non fiction book about selling books on Kobo. I'm like, doesn't sound like that would be a fascinating cop drama. I mean, like, really, I like to waste their time.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 37:54
But the other thing too, the writer, right, that's the important I got. I cracked you guys up. This is awesome. I love it.
Paulette Stout 38:07
Like good gracious Okay. Sponsor segment.
Lainey Cameron 38:10
Okay sponsor segment. So, so I love, I've also got a mental image of killing it on Kobo with a knife, like the knife says, Kobo along.
Lainey Cameron 38:17
Anyway, we're moving to our sponsor segment because we have a new sponsor this month that we're super excited about, a leader. Winternheimer is the author of the story works guide to writing. It's a series of craft books, and she's a coach.
Lainey Cameron 38:32
She's an editor, and most importantly, she offers MFA level writing workshops. And she's done something really cool. She's actually offering a special discount just for our listeners on the podcast. If you're hearing this, you can get 10% off her upcoming workshops. And going into this winter, spring here, going into 2025 she's got a workshop all about character development. She's got a workshop about how to build an arc, a character arc that wins readers and a story arc that wins readers. She's got one about how point of view defines everything. Um, it's called from one head to many author and writer characters, and how to how point of view can define them all.
Lainey Cameron 39:10
And she's offering a really cool discount for our listeners and friends of Best of Book Marketing Podcast, where you can get 10% off these workshops and you just have to go to the website, which is wordessential.com/workshops, We'll say it again at the end word essential.com/workshops and you just use the pass code BBMLOVE as in Best of Book marketing love, BBMLOVE, and you get 10% off those upcoming MFA level workshops.
Lainey Cameron 39:34
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Lainey Cameron 40:07
So if you're looking to improve your craft as we go into 2025 I think that's a great way to take her workshops, or also to just check out the episodes of her 300 plus episodes of her craft focused podcast. And as we've said before, we don't accept just any sponsor here on the podcast. We only accept people that we trust and that we have confidence in. We're never going to bring someone on board as a sponsor that we're like, oh, that's a little fishy.
Lainey Cameron 40:30
Back to the point on like there are so many scams out there. There are so many people who will take your money in the industry, who we would not want you to give money to. So when you see us recommend someone or have them as a sponsor, it means we have a level of confidence in them, and we can recommend that they're not going to scam you, and that they have something of value. So I think that's kind of important to say.
Paulette Stout 40:50
Amazing. Definitely check that out. And there's BBMLOVE folks, so she knows you came from here, and you get the special, super juicy discount secret. So thank you, Alita for sponsoring the best of book marketing. So we are going to dig in now on library stuff.
Paulette Stout 41:10
So just jumping in, Mark, what do you think are some of the biggest mistakes people make when they are approaching libraries?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 41:19
I think the biggest mistake when approaching libraries is, again, that assumption that they're going to carry the book just because you came in and talked to them again, looking at, yes, there is a local interest factor when you're approaching a library, but comp titles are so important. Who is this for? Is this in the same way that booksellers have to turn inventory and they have to be able to make money off the book.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 41:45
A book that's sitting on a library shelf that is not being checked up by patrons is not doing anyone any favors. Is anything it's hogging budget money, and that could be in shelf space. So that's a really important aspect to consider when you're approaching a library. The other thing I think about libraries is they are away. I interviewed the the the two doctors from Portland University, Portland State University, and I think it was in 2020 or 2021 but the panorama project is you can Google that. And they talked about the importance of libraries, and they talked about how important libraries are for selling books. And there are a lot of authors, particularly because they've been conditioned by the big publishers who actually see libraries as cannibals of print sales, and they're not.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 42:40
They are by far a great resource for selling more books. And I that's probably why in the US, it's probably, I think the authors guilds probably been tainted by that disbelief that that libraries are cannibals, therefore there is no public landing right? In the US, it's one of a few. There's 36 countries in the world that have a great public landing right program, meaning authors can get additional compensation just for being in libraries. It does not exist in the US, but us authors can change that by going to our local authors organizations and fighting for it like the writers union of Canada fought for it for us many years ago. But I think that that's an important aspect for libraries, and then also thinking about the library, yes, is a place for books, but the library is a place for community and community resources.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 43:27
And my local library here, you can sign up skates, you can go and use the printer. There's a studio where you can record your own audio book or podcast. It's all free. So you, as an author, and a lot of authors, forget this, you are an amazing resource for your library. Think about the things you can do based on the research you did for your book. So again, it could be research you did to study how certain plants can be turned into toxins or whatever and whatever, because you had to learn this chemical stuff, where you had to learn this, these scientific things, or you learned a little bit about police procedurals or whatever it is, or maybe about writing in general, and see what you can do to offer a workshop or a talk. I mean, I do a lot of talks around, I don't know why in October, people are interested in learning about ghost stories and stuff like that, but I do a lot of talks about researching and ghost like, what it's like, and I share ghost stories, right?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 44:25
And I do some for writers like the business of telling ghost stories, and then I do some for the general public, which are, hey, this is what I do. I chase ghosts around. And, well, I don't do it myself because I'm too scared, but I talk about how I do my research to write ghost stories, and then I share some really fun ghost stories with them, and then you could, I mean, also depends on what it is, right? You can talk about, this is how you write. This is how you write a novel. This is how you publish a novel. I mean, as an indie author, you have so many skills you can use. So when you do those things with a library, when you offer those free workshops, they're more likely to want to stock. Your books because they say, Paulette stout, local author who's written, you know, their fourth books, just coming out this February, is going to give a talk on, you know, you know, a contemporary fiction crossover with romance like that, kind of like, because you do, you because you're you cross genres in different ways, right? So it can appeal to a few different audiences. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and lo and behold, they feature your books on a display saying you're coming up and you're doing the workshop there, which means they're going to order your books, which also means very, very importantly, like those booksellers, the librarians, know who you are.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 45:31
And when somebody asks for a book, it's like, well, that they don't have that new Jody Bucha, or I don't have that new armor trout or whatever the author's name is, they go. But there's a local author who writes something very similar. Let me show you her books. That's magic,
Lainey Cameron 45:48
And I completely agree with what you're saying about cannibalizing, right? Like it doesn't cannibalize in fact, Melissa's in the chat with us here, and Melissa's pointing out that if she loves a book enough that she gets in the library, she goes and gets a hard copy for her shelf at home.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 46:00
Exactly, yeah, no, 100%. And Melissa, so it's so true, but Melissa probably reads, you know, let's say 10 books a week, and then one of them she loves so much, she goes and buys. That's great. I love that. That's phenomenal. The library helped her discover those books. That's amazing.
Paulette Stout 46:18
Yes, I have books that I've read the library that I then bought in like, multiple formats, because I really wanted to consume them how I want to, yeah, how I want to read.
Lainey Cameron 46:29
So our our next question here is actually about this question of libraries ordering books and how they do it. And can you talk a little bit about how the choice of how we distribute our books affects the likelihood of successful, successfully partnering with the library. And I know, like some authors who are brand new to this, may not understand some of the dynamics yet of if they choose to go, you know, Amazon exclusive. And I love the phrase in your book where you talk about, I think you called it pretended distribution through Amazon.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 47:00
So, yeah. Now, when it comes to, let's talk print books first. When it comes to print books, one of the only ways in any author can easily make the book available to libraries is through a wholesaler like Ingram. So Ingram Spark or draft, digital print, those are two of the ways. There are other ways that you can get your book into the Ingram ecosystem. Ingram is the world's largest English language wholesaler.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 47:21
When libraries buy from them, there are library distributors. I know there's one here in Ontario. There's in different states, they have them, and they can pay extra to have your book stock there. But these are print on demand. You don't want to have to pay for stock, so that's an important aspect. Amazon does have a great print on demand service, which is great for Amazon. It's not great for anyone else. I mean, it's good good for authors in Amazon, but it's not good for anyone else, because they offer such a crappy discount, which like 5% discount to bookstores libraries, which is why I call it pretend. They call it extended distribution. I call it pretended because you think it's available, but it's not attractive to anyone.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 47:56
So it's kind of like that's something you don't you don't even want to think about that. Now, that being said, there are libraries who will order print books right off of Amazon's retail site too, so that you might be getting library sales without even knowing it through Amazon, but that for print distribution is fine. Now, Libraries also pay attention to literary journals, like there's Publishers Weekly and and I can't even come up with Library Journal Kirkus Reviews, and it does money to get those reviews, and there's no guarantee it's going to lead to a sale, but if they find out about a book and then they go to look to see if there's a review that could be something that pushes them over the edge, that pushes them into wanting to get that the other thing is, if you've made a relationship with your local library, librarians talk. They go to like there's the Ontario librarians conference that takes place here in Ontario every February. I know there's different conferences that take place regional and librarians talk to one another, and that's how that's booksellers talk to one another too. Is that's how the authors can get discovered, because Paulette may have a great relationship with their local library, and they're like, oh my god, we just can't keep we have to keep ordering this book.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 49:06
And people just keep wanting to read them over and over and over again. And then someone else, like, Who's this name? And they write it down, like, Oh yeah, it's available for you, and we're gonna order them. So that's free books or for print books, for ebooks, you already, you already sort of suggested this. Lainey, if you are exclusive to Amazon, with your ebooks, you cannot make your books available at the library, so eBooks are off the table for libraries if you're exclusive to Amazon, if you're not exclusive to Amazon, and here's the clincher, with Amazon for Kindle Unlimited, you read for free, which is a lie, because you're paying a corporation to read for free as much as you want.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 49:39
With libraries, everyone can read your book for free, and they don't have to pay a giant corporation billionaire who sends dick rockets into space. You know you can actually you know what I mean. Libraries are a part of that community, and everyone can read for free without some other billionaire getting rich off of
Paulette Stout 49:58
You ust changed our rating Mark!
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 49:59
I'm sorry I didn't say....
Paulette Stout 50:06
No, no, no. You didn't change.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 50:08
It's like a short term for Richard. Richard, that's what it is.
Lainey Cameron 50:12
I always click the box that says, not for kids when I upload our podcast.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 50:15
Well it is not for kids, that's for sure. But, but no, so. So your ebook availability into libraries. There's different ways to get into libraries. You can get into through distributors. So drafted digital publish, drive, street, lib, for example, our distributors can get you into the most of the library distributors. I know Kobo Writing Life does have a relationship with overdrive, one of the wholesalers, but you've got overdrive. Biblioteca, Baker and Taylor, Hoopla, Palace, marketplace, borrow box, which is UK, Australia, New Zealand and Ireland, but not available in North America, but they're huge in those markets. And so those are some of the major library wholesalers. And different libraries may use different platforms for purchasing. So being available in most of them is great, because if you're only in overdrive, and they only use hoopla, or they only use biblioteca, or they only use a Dillo to acquire their ebooks. You're not going to be available, so you want to be able to do that,
Paulette Stout 51:10
Like Tolino. Is that Germany or Toledo?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 51:13
Tolino is a retail is a composite of a whole bunch of retailers, big chains and small stores, who they call the toleno alliance, and they were founded in Germany as a way to protect themselves, against the Amazon, against that big rocket ship crashing.
Paulette Stout 51:31
The big rocket ship crash for people. So despite what Mark has been saying about my library, local Library's love for me, I cannot get into my local library because of their review requirements, they say you have to have been reviewed, and it leads to like, library journal, you know what, whatever. So just wondering what your thoughts are about getting over any of those, you know, preconceptions or prejudices that libraries somehow libraries have about self published authors.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 51:58
So, I'm not saying that they're lying to you, but it's really it's a lot of work to consider acquisition outside of the regular process. Talking to local authors is not always fun or easy, so oftentimes they'll put up a front and just have an easy way to reject everyone so they don't have to deal with it. And I'm not saying that they're doing that, or that or that they're lazy, or anything like that. I understand it's a lot of work. If your local newspaper or your local media has reviewed it, that will make it an exception. If they have enough patrons come in and ask for your books, who cares if Library Journal reviewed it? If 50 patrons come in or 15 patrons keep asking for the same book. That's more powerful than some review somewhere from some New York Magazine.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 52:48
Here's the clincher, and his is so, so important. Don't have people go and ask for a book from the library, and then the library goes and gets it for the patrons, and those patrons don't check it out. That is the worst thing you can do for your brand, because then they're going to go, ooh. Paulette Stowe, we're never going to get her books in, because we got them all in and nobody checked them out, even though we had 15 people ask for them. So don't play the game of going and getting people to ask for something that they're not going to follow up on. Get people who love the library, Melissa, for example, people who love using the library say, well, Melissa, if you ask for books in library, I know you're going to check them out because you your library patron. So that's so important, because they want to see that the community is engaging with the book. They don't need to sell it. They want to see that engagement, and that engagement is how they decide to keep that in inventory. If that makes sense. It does.
Paulette Stout 53:38
It makes a lot of sense. I love that. Yeah, unfortunately, something that I was going to do for my book launch study for I forgot to do is, and I gotta go do it again. Yeah?
Lainey Cameron 53:45
And I like, I think you made the point in your book also about, like, you know, using your newsletter, right? When you send it, when you got a new book announcement, tell people to go request it at the library, rather than only telling people to buy it and then they're requesting it and renting it out. They're not just requesting it for the sake of it.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 53:59
Yeah. I mean, at the end of my newsletter, I have a thing that says, Oh yes, it's free. And this is like, clicks here, and says, you can get pretty much any one of my books in most formats that they're available in through your local library. Just, you know, check it out. Go ask for them, and thank you for doing that.
Lainey Cameron 54:16
So you said one way to get the library to pay attention to your book is to get featured in local media to have enough people requesting it. Any other tips or thoughts? Any other ways to get a local library to people who create books and make decisions to want to bring your book in? Yeah.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 54:31
Well, I think I meant patron demand is one of the most popular things, right? If patrons want the book, then they you know. So then how do you find how do you say, okay, patrons who are all and here's the thing, this has happened to libraries all the time, and this is where the comps come in play. Let's say you write Lee Child style thriller that has a character like Jack Reacher, who's a lone whatever. And lots of indie authors have titles like that, just like a lone guy just going freelance and kind of saving the day and killing people. And all the fun stuff that happens in those novels.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 55:02
Lee Child, well, he doesn't even write them anymore, but he he's because he's retired, but puts out a book a year, and the library may have on the latest lead child, they may have holds for 50 patrons, and that means 50 people are waiting for that book, and they can't have that book. I'll give you an example. Diane camper, who's an independent author, this, I think, is a good example, as she actually writes the only authorized Jack reachers, the hunt for reacher series authorized by Lee Child because she's a friend of his, and she's got like, an amazing series of books called the hunt for reacher that take place in the same universe. The only the agreement she has is she can't ever have reacher appear on screen, because it's the agents who are chasing after behind him that are trying to think he's a bad guy trying to catch him, and it's their stories in the same towns with the same characters who Lee just interacted with, the ones that are still alive, or that Jack creature. In any case, an author like that, because you got to remember that traditionally published title costs the library anywhere from $50 to $150 for the ebook Diane's entire series, they could probably buy for $60 or $50 or more or less, depending on what she set her library price at, and satisfy a whole bunch of readers who can get and like, well, while you're waiting, you may as well read these.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 56:12
And that's where comps come in handy, and that's the other thing about libraries. Is when you set your price for the print book, that's the print book price, and libraries pay that with whatever discount they can get from Ingram. But the ebook price, there's a retail price for the retailers, and then there's a library price that you set. So for example, I'll use drafted digital for an example. You've got retail price, let's say 499, standard price for the average indie author ebook, and then my library price may be 999, or might be 1299, usually it's recommended to make it two to three times the price, but not too much higher. Because libraries pay attention, they go and look at the retailer and go, Well, if you're selling for 499 and your library price is $69 you're ripping off the library. I mean, the publishers are ripping off everyone, but you've taken advantage of the library.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 57:00
And I learned this from librarians at the Toronto Public Library, that they actually pay attention to that like it has to be a comparable price based on your retail price. So don't get too greedy, but don't be too, you know, don't be too bargain basement when it comes to your library pricing, because again, they purchase that book and then they have it forever, that ebook, right?
Paulette Stout 57:21
I think you recommended like, like, was that cute of five times? Or what's the what's the range?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 57:27
Yeah, two to three times, and then again, like, so if, but if you're, let's say your ebook price, because it's a specialized non fiction book, and your ebook is $24 doesn't mean you're going to sell it for $100 to the library. Maybe the library price is $49 because you only go two times, because it's a much higher price, right? You know what I mean, so and then the box set, or something, or, yeah, box set, for example.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 57:49
But then I'm not convinced that box sets are a good deal for you as an author for libraries, because it might take a reader so long to read them. Think about like, five books. How many? Eight hours per book? And that's going to be like, Oh, it's going to take them forever to read it. And it. It may be better for them to buy those individually. So I've even stopped making my digital box sets available to libraries like the bigger ones, because I don't want to muddy the waters, and I'd rather be able to have a patron check it out, read it, return it digitally, and then the next person and then read the next book, rather than have all five of them for longer and just keep renewing it, that makes sense?
Paulette Stout 58:25
Yep, no, totally, totally. So let's see, I guess, a good question for you. I'm gonna skip a question here because I think if you have any tips for approaching libraries that are outside of your local area? Because, yeah, I once I heard a speech of this amazing gentleman who wrote a book of libraries, and I got this database, and I got all these, like, lists of names, and then I emailed them, and, you know, yeah, a lot of them are not in my local area, or I started with my state. But any thoughts around that, Mark?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 58:57
So that that's a tricky one, because you're cold calling, and unless you have a really good connection to a comp that this is a really good comp for this, and then they go, Oh, I'm looking for that again, most of those emails, they're never going to look at, right? So what are you going to do? Are you going to actually send them a physical copy and be rise above the digital masses, right, the digital slush pile? Because the like 50 emails, emails are free, and I can my inbox fills up so fast I won't read most of them. The same thing for libraries. So those lists may or may not be helpful, unless you're able to establish some sort of important connection, and maybe it's actually sending them a physical copy. But I think the other, the other thing that to consider is, okay, I don't live in this town, but there's an element of my book that's associated with something that's important to this town, because it's a community that is a mining community, or it's a community that is a steel community, or it's a community that manufactures this product, or it's whatever, or it's based on a coffee shop. My coffee shop and my cozy mystery is. Based on this coffee shop in this town, and even though I don't live there, I visited it 10 years ago. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So any of those connections can help you as as well. So try to look for those. And it's hard. And here's the thing, and a lot of people, it's a lot of work. It's not easy. It's not easy at all.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:00:18
Yeah, you can, you can scale on Amazon ad by just throwing in whatever keywords and clicking a few buttons. It's hard to scale this kind of work because it's very manual and it's very much based on relationships and communication, like one on one communication with people, and you can't scale that easily. What scales it is word of mouth when your book is successful, and librarians talk to other librarians, and you can't control that either, just like you can't control whether something's going to go viral on social media or not. But when it does work in that 1% of the cases, it works really well.
Lainey Cameron 1:00:55
So I think we're down to our last two questions here. One is actually a question from the last one is a really hard one. But first we have a question from the audience, actually, Maggie Smith, who just released a great thriller called Blind Spot earlier this year.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:01:10
Oh Cool, my local library, it's very good.
Lainey Cameron 1:01:14
It's really good. And Maggie's asking, like, it's almost like a success question, like, what if you're successful and your library ends up with a lot of copies of your book, what do they actually do with that after the fact, right, when it dies down? And is there an opportunity of some type there?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:01:30
So if, yeah, if Maggie's talking about physical books, they probably have 48 copies of that book because the demand was so high. Like maybe they had a book club that all wanted it at once. That's where cost per checkout in ebooks really, really is beneficial, but they will well. So books, physical books and hardcovers last longer than trade paperbacks, but physical books usually, typically, and this, this depends on the environment and the people who are using the books, but about 30 to 40 checkouts, and the book is worn out and it has to be bought again. So some of them are going to wear out because they're going to get checked out more than others, and they're just going to have died natural death and get sold. Usually the library has like a fundraiser. They like sell they sell off their old stock. They sometimes donate them to women's shelters or other other places like that as well that communities in need. So yeah, those physical copies, and then again, if they have 48 copies that were in high demand, because it was a lot of demand when the book first came out, and then that demand peters off, they may end up liquidating some of that stock and bringing it back down to like one or two copies, because, again, shelf space, and if they're just sitting there not doing anything, then they're going to probably want to that could be an offer for saying, Hey, I noticed you still have a lot of copies of my book. I'm willing to come in and do a book club, a chat with you. You have any like local book clubs and stuff like that. Love to come in and do a talk again, that way they can all check it out at the same time and and then that just gives them back into circulation. Nice.
Paulette Stout 1:03:04
I like that idea. I like that idea because otherwise, they're in the library sale.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:03:08
Yeah. And again, it's not at the end of the world somebody bought, but I bought lots of books from library sales, and gone on to become fans of that author and go and buy all their other books after that. So again, that discoverability. So here's the thing I remember, a physical book is handled on average by about seven different people. An e book is handled on average by like, 1.2 people, because of shared Cobos and Kindles and stuff like that. But a physical book is handled physically by seven different people, and everywhere it goes, that everywhere that you know, Mary went, that little lamb would go, that book cover is walking advertisement for your book. So everywhere that that goes on a shell, cell phone, a used bookstore in a customer's hand is visible. And that is, you know, the old seven beings SEVEN, SEVEN hits for marketing. Like, do you have to see something seven times before you purchase? Yes, and Jim. And Jim Bain has often said he was a publisher of the science fiction line, said your book cover is a billboard and the book cover itself is an advertisement for your book. And so that's why I think physical books are really important. We can't measure the cost per click on them, but they're so important because they're visible, way more visible. You know, the spines aren't as visible there, but way more visible than a thumbnail. I have to pay Amazon to show people
Paulette Stout 1:04:23
I can't wait for that next book you mentioned, Mark. I'm waiting for it now.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:04:29
Oh, I'm working on it.
Lainey Cameron 1:04:29
So here's our last question. And like I said, it's a bit of a we'll take a broader lens and zoom out here on the whole book selling and library business, especially the returns parts. So I come from a tech background. I used to work in tech marketing, and we worked really hard to get to just in time inventory and to not have a lot of returns, and to not have inefficient business models. And I think you say this in your book, and it's kind of well known that publishing is this incredibly wasteful, inefficient industry, right in terms of having all this inventory sitting out? There and unlimited returns, and it's basically on consignment. I mean, it's archaic. Do you think it's gonna change? I mean, you're the expert. You are really close to all of this. Do you see it changing in any way when you look forward here over the next 10 years? You know?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:05:17
No, no, I don't see it. So I honestly, I would have thought that the traditional book industry had an opportunity, an unprecedented hunt. There was an unprecedented event in our lifetime that happened in recent years that was completely unlike anything we have ever experienced in our lifetimes. That was an opportunity for traditional publishers to embrace new ways of doing things, as opposed to being in the business of shipping dead trees around. They seem to have doubled down on the business of shipping dead trees around and not embracing that. And I'm thinking, if you can have a global pandemic that completely, I mean, that was the first time I saw library sales go up triple digits since the advent of the of the ebook revolution.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:06:11
You know, 10-15, years ago, the first time is a massive change, because you couldn't, I mean, ironically, an ebook was the only way you could. We didn't know if books came with a virus, right? We didn't know we were washing things down with the bleach when it came into the house, because we had no idea this had never happened to us before, so we were all rightfully very frightened. And trepidatious publishers did something weird. They delayed titles instead of releasing them. Are you kidding me? I mean, online book sales were still going strong. My local independent bookstores pivoted brilliantly into shipping and pick up at the door. If you remember that, they pivoted in incredible ways. The major, major publishers put the brakes and said, Oh, we were going to release your book, but we can't release it now.
Paulette Stout 1:07:03
What if they couldn't have learned from something as traumatic and earth shattering? Is that? Do you think they're going to learn from just continuing to get away with doing the same same old, same old? I don't think so. Did they learn on how Amazon took so much of that business away and pressures them and hurts them, because Amazon is good to customers. Amazon screws its vendors, ie, publishers,
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:07:35
Publishers, still just bend over and take it instead of doing what they could have done and should have done, which is having direct relationships with with their consumers and working out other means of doing this. I don't know. They can get punched around and kicked in the face and do all this stuff, and they're going to still keep getting going, please, so I can have some more. So I honestly don't think anything about that's going to change anytime soon.
Lainey Cameron 1:08:01
Fair,
Paulette Stout 1:08:01
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mark for being with us and sharing your expertise and your humor as always or just such a like I just every minute I spend with you I really enjoy. So thank you so much. Do you want to share with everybody where they can find you? If there's any projects or events you want people to be aware of that are coming up?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre 1:08:21
Yeah, sure. markleslie.ca You can find links to all my social media that way. I just released a few trivia books about movies like Christmas vacation. Trivia guide to National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. I do have one on Die Hard as well, but I do have the book you talked about working with bookstores and libraries. I'm part of the smashword sale right now. It's and I've got all of my books there are 75% off. So if you go to smashwords.com you can get it for like a buck 24 as an e book as well. So if you, if you or better yet, ask for it at your local library and then and challenge librarians say, okay, get this book in and let's tell this guy where he's wrong, because that gives them a nice challenge, right? Because I know I made mistakes. I want to learn anyways, right? Love it.
Paulette Stout 1:09:10
Thank you, Mark. Thank you so much. And thank you everyone for listening. And thank you for everyone who joined us live and will listen in the future webs. Thank you for supporting the podcast. It's been, it's been a great and if you have episode ideas, please let us know, because we'll be planning the 2025, roster of episodes very soon. So hit us up on social media. Let us know if it's a topic you'd like us to cover, and we will see you next time.
Lainey Cameron 1:09:35
See you, next timee.
Paulette Stout 1:09:37
Ba-bye.