Episode 110: Navigating Author Career Change with Camille Pagán
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Coming Friday Feb 28th as audio podcast on Apple Podcasts & Spotify
Nothing in life goes as expected, and the same is true for our author journeys. Making a career change in our author lives can feel uncomfortable, scary and even like admitting failure. But change also presents opportunities to grow, innovate, and become even better.
In this episode, Lainey and Paulette welcome the incomparable, Camille Pagán, to discuss how to successfully navigate career pivots and emerge stronger on the other side.
About Camille
Camille Pagán is the #1 Amazon Charts and Washington Post bestselling author of numerous novels, including GOOD FOR YOU and LIFE AND OTHER NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. A master-certified career and mindset coach, she's the founder of Even Better Co., which helps novelists create even better careers, and the host of the Career Novelist Podcast. You can learn more about her at camillepagan.com or evenbetter.co.
Episode Resources
Success Strategies for Debut Authors - Free Training from Camille
BestSeller Boot Camp - A self-guided, five-module course that teaches writers to create a book and brand that makes them the obvious choice for their ideal readers.
The Career Novelist™ Podcast With Camille Pagán
San Miguel de Allende Writers Retreat, organized by Lynne Golodner (mentioned during Lainey’s intro)
Waitlist for Lainey’s book Marketing program for authors, 12 Weeks to Book Launch Success
Connect with Camille:
Books Mentioned
What We Give Away by Paulette Stout (releases February 4th, 2025)
In this compelling tale of self-discovery and romance, Leslie must navigate a world that demands she conform, while finding the courage to be true to herself and live her best life.
Full Disclosure: We are part of the Amazon affiliate program, which means Lainey earns a tiny commission (maybe enough for a coffee if you buy something after clicking through from a link on this website.
Episode Sponsor
Alida Winternheimer, author of The Story Works Guide to Writing series of craft books, is your guide to mastering the art of storytelling.
She’s the brains behind Word Essential and Story Works.
In addition to editing and coaching, Alida offers MFA-level writing workshops that focus on developing the writer while growing craft knowledge and skill.
The 2025 Character-Plot-POV series of workshops:
Motivation from the Inside-Out: understanding and working the layers of character development
Scale the Mountain, Swim the River: using plot points to build an arc that wins readers
From One Head to Many: author, narrator, characters and how point of view defines them all
The workshops will help you:
Get to the core of character and create protagonists driven by more than the tides of change
Use your protagonist’s deep-seated motivation to shape your plot with real twists and turns
Understand narrative point of view and how to control elements of voice, lens, and psychic distance perfectly suited to your story.
These workshops are designed to be most beneficial together, but can be taken singly.
12 Weeks to Book Launch Success - Lainey’s program to help authors successfully launch their book
Program Info - 12 Weeks to Book Launch Success.
Join the wait list for 12 Weeks to Book Launch Success
Join Lainey’s list for free book marketing tips and webinars
Paulette’s Indie author coaching - schedule time here or email her at info@paulettestout.com
Note: next sections are mostly created by AI for your convenience - so please forgive any typos or inaccuracies!
Summary
Camille Pagan, a best-selling author and master certified coach, discusses career pivots and mindset shifts for authors. She emphasizes the importance of aligning career goals with long-term visions and overcoming mindset issues like burnout and dissatisfaction. Pagan shares her journey from journalism to fiction, highlighting the benefits of coaching and the need for strategic positioning in publishing. She addresses the stigma around self-publishing, advocating for informed risks and proactive marketing. Pagan also touches on the impact of professional jealousy and the necessity of continuous learning and adaptation in the ever-evolving publishing landscape.
Outline
Personal Updates
Lainey Cameron shares her progress on revisions for her book and the success of her 12-week book launch success program.
Lainey talks about her experience at the San Miguel Writers Conference, mentioning notable attendees like Margaret Atwood.
Lainey also promotes a writer retreat in San Miguel organized by Lynn Galodner and the San Miguel Writers Conference tickets available at a discount.
Paulette Stout discusses her recent book launch and the positive response it has received, focusing on body positivity and diet culture.
Camille Pagan's Career Journey
Camille Pagan shares her background as a health and psychology journalist and her transition to fiction writing.
She recounts the challenges of her first book, which bombed, and how she eventually found success with her subsequent books.
Camille explains her decision to become a certified coach after experiencing the benefits of coaching herself.
She describes her coaching program, Even Better Co, and how it helps novelists create better careers.
Common Career Pivots and Mindset Issues
Camille discusses common reasons authors seek career pivots, such as burnout, feeling stuck, and dissatisfaction with their agents.
She clarifies the roles of agents, emphasizing that they are not lawyers, therapists, or cheerleaders.
Camille advises authors to clearly define their wants and needs from an agent or publisher.
She shares her approach to helping authors navigate mindset issues and make informed decisions about their careers.
Navigating Publishing Pivots
Lainey Cameron and Paulette Stout discuss their experiences with potential publishing pivots, including moving from indie to traditional publishing or vice versa.
Camille emphasizes the importance of aligning career goals with long-term visions and making informed decisions based on personal needs.
The conversation touches on the stigma around self-publishing and the changing landscape of publishing.
Camille advises authors to be proactive, ask for what they want, and support themselves regardless of the publishing model they choose.
Thoughts on Professional Jealousy
Paulette Stout and Camille discuss the challenges of professional jealousy and how it can impact authors.
Camille suggests using jealousy as a motivational tool to identify personal goals and aspirations.
The conversation highlights the importance of focusing on one's own path and not comparing oneself to others.
Camille encourages authors to embrace their unique journeys and not be deterred by external perceptions.
Camille Pagan's Coaching Programs
Camille provides an overview of her Career Novelist Mastermind program, including its structure, frequency, and focus areas.
She explains the benefits of the program, such as foundational lessons, workshops, and personalized coaching.
Camille emphasizes the importance of community and support within the program.
She also mentions her free webinars and open coaching calls as resources for authors who are not ready for the mastermind program.
Final Thoughts
Camille shares her thoughts on the common belief that authors are "too late" and encourages them to challenge that mindset.
She highlights the importance of taking educated risks and making decisions that align with personal goals.
Transcript
Paulette Stout 0:00
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Best of Book Marketing podcast. We have an amazing episode for you today with our special guest Camille Pagan. We are going to be talking about all about career change, author pivots, mindset and how to navigate all of it while coming out whole on the other side. So we're super excited to have Camille with us today. And Camille want you to jump in and, you know, tell us a little bit about you and your work, and then we can dig into the interview in earnest.
Camille Pagan 0:36
Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. So I am the number one Amazon charts Best Selling Author of 10 books. My 11th will be out next year. At some point, I am also a master certified coach, and I help novelists create even better careers. My podcast is the career novelist podcast, and I talk about many of the same themes that you all do, sometimes from a different angle, but I know there's a lot of overlap. I loved your last episode on goal setting, so it was very fun.
Paulette Stout 1:06
Well, thanks so much. Um, I did things out of order, so forgive me, we usually do a little bit of updates, so we're just going to do a quick, quick personal updates, and then we'll dig in. Lainey, you want to go first inside Binya jacking, sure, sure.
Lainey Cameron 1:19
So I'm still chugging away with my revisions on my book that I hope will be finished this year. Cross fingers, touch all the wood. And I'm really happy to say that I filled my class for my next round of 12 Weeks to Book Launch Success, which is my marketing program for authors.
Lainey Cameron 1:34
It does tend to sell out every time. So if you might be interested for next time I run it, which will probably be in the fall, just get on the wait list. I'll put the link for the wait list on the episode.
Lainey Cameron 1:44
And I just had a really fun week last week, because it was the San Miguel Writers Conference, which is down here in Mexico, and we had like, over 1000 writers came to town for it. It's a blast. I always get to meet some really interesting people. Courtney Maumwas down here. Margaret Atwood was here for the actually full month. Um, really fun. And I'll just put a little plug in zero commission for me here. But if you might be interested in coming next year to San Miguel to the Writers Conference, they're doing the tickets at the 2012 2025 crisis until the end until, think March 1, until the end of this month. So it's something you've been watching. Just good to know. And I also know that.
Lainey Cameron 2:20
And I also know that, and I'll also put the link for this in the episode page. Lynne Golodner is organizing a retreat here in January 2026, for writers. And she's been going back and forth with me some some advice and tips about town, and I think it's half filled already. So if you might be interested in doing a writer retreat in San Miguel, there's one that's coming January next year, and then the conference February next year. So there you go. I'm the ambassador for San Miguel de Allende, clearly, Paulette over to you.
Paulette Stout 2:46
Just super quickly, as I was just chatting with cab before we started my book launch a couple weeks ago, when we give away. Oh, there you go.
Lainey Cameron 2:57
Yeah, I got my copy.
Paulette Stout 3:00
Which is like a body positive second chain of romance, um, that really dives into the issue of diet culture and eating disorders. And you know how we can just all feel way better about ourselves and our bodies? So it's getting like a really fantastic response, um, from readers and from influences who are kind of like, Finally, someone is like telling us that we do not need to diet and we can be whole.
Paulette Stout 3:23
So it's just, it's just been really great. If you have read the book and you're interested in the resources, you can get those on my website. You can also get the recipes, some of the recipes from the books of pan and Maduros and all kinds of rice and beans and things. Those are recipes are on my website too, for free, so you can check those out. I'm starting the next book now. Give myself a little bit grace, and hopefully we'll talk a little bit more about that with our amazing guest, Camille, about what is coming next for that. So just want to let's
Lainey Cameron 3:59
Should we do a little bit more of an intro of Camille and get going into all the great questions we have for her.
Camille Pagan 4:03
Yeah, let's dive in.
Paulette Stout 4:04
Let's into the questions. Yeah.
Lainey Cameron 4:06
Okay, so I just want to point out that Camille once runs these amazing programs that we're going to talk about a little bit more at the end. She is a certified career and mindset coach, and she's the founder of evenbetter.co which really helps you kind of create a better career as an author. So if you're interested by what Camille is saying today, you have lots of ways that we'll give you at the end on how to follow up and potentially work with her. So just, just to put that out there.
Lainey Cameron 4:31
Well, I think we were going to start with a question for Camille about why become a certified coach, like a career and mindset coach. It's such an interesting life choice to make for me, and I'm really interested in what led you there- do that and to go through the pretty, I understand, pretty arduous process of becoming certified as well.
Camille Pagan 5:05
Yeah, yeah. So this was not my life plan in any way. I was a health and psychology journalist for 20 years, so I worked on the editorial side at a couple of publications, and was an independent journalist writing well over 1000 reported pieces for time. New York Times, Real Simple, where I was the health editor, you name it, and I covered mostly women's health and psychology. And you know how psychology affects women primarily. So I was used to interviewing and listening a lot to people, and in retrospect, it all makes sense, but again, didn't see this coming.
Camille Pagan 5:42
Started writing fiction about 15 years ago, had a best case scenario, sold my debut at auction for six figures, and it totally bombed, and took me four years to publish another book. So then things really got going. I'm publishing a book a year, having really sales beyond my wildest dreams. Have a clear brand. My publisher is telling me, Listen, you are our most comp author. My sales weren't the highest at my publishing company, but I was the one that people were like, it's another Camille pagan book. And they said, We're going to buy anything you sell us.
Camille Pagan 6:14
And so I wrote a whole book, and my agent and I brought it to them. This is probably six or seven years ago, I don't know, Quarantine is kind of warped my sense of time. I think it was about six years ago, and we were so excited. We're like, Oh, this is going to be a breakout book. This is going to be the next level. I think it took them, like, two weeks to read it, and they were like, No, we're not buying this. This is not for us. I was so devastated, and I immediately went to this place of, oh, I'm going to be stuck again. It's going to take me another four years. And I thought, You know what? No, I'm not going to do that again.
Camille Pagan 6:49
So I hired a business coach of someone who really did business. I was telling Lainey, kind of behind the scenes, almost any kind of coach that you work with is going to get into mindset. That's what coaching is. There's a lot of how are you thinking about this? What are the conscious or unconscious biases you have and the models that you're using? So this business coach did that for me, and to my surprise, not only did I get unstuck, wrote another book that I then sold to them, which became one of my best selling novels my whole life, just got better. And I'm not saying like, Oh, it was a magic wand. Stuff is hard life is life, right? We talk about this all the time, but I was like, Oh, I'm making more money. I'm nicer to my kids, because I'm really thinking about what I'm thinking and how it's coming across. It just really improved a lot for me. And so I decided to get certified, and that was a six month process.
Camille Pagan 7:41
Then I went through master certification, which was another six plus months. Didn't love that process, but the experience of being a coach was such a natural fit for me. I was already working kind of as a consultant. People would say, like, can I buy your time? Tell me how you did this thing. How did you brand and I'd be like, Yeah, sure. Which is better than just having your brain picked all the time. I was like, Oh, I'm already coaching. My first coaching program. They're like, Do you realize that you're already doing this?
Camille Pagan 8:07
And I was like, Oh, I am. So five years later, here I am. I used to work with a broad range of people. I would work with entrepreneurs, non fiction writers, journalists, you name it, kind of all in the self employed realm, but, you know, within that space now, I just work with novelists, because those are my people. That's my language, that's my heart. And so I help novelists really create a career that they're doing on purpose, and I love it. That's the second half of every day for me. Yeah,
Paulette Stout 8:36
That's fantastic. Yeah, you had lots of career pivots within your own experience. So this is, oh yeah, a great come. So when you're working with all with your clients, very lucky clients, um, what are the tops of pivots that you see people going through, you know, just a few, or that's agents or career paths, or just getting their head around disappointments, like, like, what do you encounter the most?
Camille Pagan 9:03
Yeah, so a lot of times they need to pivot because of big mindset issues, so they're burned out. That's really common. The person who's going to hire a coach is generally very ambitious. Once a lot usually is caring for lots of people too. There's all those layers. They may feel stuck, a very common issue, and we'll probably talk about this at length in most of the things we discussed today, is feeling like you don't have control over your career. I felt that way for sure, and at various points I felt that way again.
Camille Pagan 9:34
So how do you take back that control? But I would say the number one reason someone comes to me during a career pivot is because they want to change agents. They're unhappy with how it's going. They want a different experience from their agent. And what's funny is sometimes they don't end up changing agents after we work together. I think there's a lot of misconceptions around what agents do. And, you know, no shade, I think I didn't understand this fully in the beginning either, even though I worked in publishing and had friends who are agents, your agent is not a lawyer, although they will review contracts for you, they're not a therapist, and they're actually not your cheerleader.
Camille Pagan 10:14
And I think that last piece is the hardest for people. You may hear about the unicorn agent, and and of course, your agents want the best for you, but they're not sending you bi weekly check ins to be like, you can do it. And so clearing that up is sometimes the solution, although other times it's like, no, here's what I want. This agent is not giving that to me, or they have a different vision for my career. And yes, I'm going to go find another agent, and so that's what we do together. Yeah.
Lainey Cameron 10:43
And how do you advise authors to approach it? Let's go with this agent example. Do you start with your own mindset? Do you build a plan like, how do you approach the whole question if I'm going to make a big change? Well,
Camille Pagan 10:55
I first just find out what do you want? And that sounds very obvious, but no matter what we're talking about, a lot of times we're like, oh, I don't know. I haven't actually stopped to think about, what do I clearly want out of this situation? And so we'll come up with a list, you know, they might want, like a very editorial agent. And I'll say, Well, what does that mean to you? They want someone who can sell the crap out of their book, which is what we all want, right? And I say, okay, is this person selling the kind of books you know, like the people on your list? Are they selling the kind of books that you want to be positioned with? They might want a high level of support from that agent, where, if they email, they're going to hear back that week. Not all agents do that.
Camille Pagan 11:38
And I would say this is where I think my perspective is a little unique. It's not that I know every agent out there. It's just that I've been in this business for 24 years in some capacity. So I have a good idea, not only, of like, what certain agencies are like, again, not all of them, but a lot, especially within the commercial realm. But what should you look for to make sure you're actually getting what you want? How does that person communicate with you? What is that a sign of what is the agency agreement look like? Is it one page or is it 72 pages? So that is the stuff that I will work on with my clients. And then, of course, we talk about mindset too. Let's just say they're like, I want a cheerleader. I'm like, Okay, why? What is that going to mean to you? Well, that my work is good. Well, who gets to decide thillimat? So there's a lot of that.
Lainey Cameron 12:24
I actually have a little personal story having worked with Camille myself, I did Camille's mastermind program, and I was having a hard time with I don't know how to get fast enough to write a book a year. Like it's hard for me to write a book a year, but I see these other authors, and I I believe the publisher I want really needs a book a year. And I remember Camil just made me stop and go ask me the question, like, do you want towrite a book a year?
Camille Pagan 12:47
I totally remember this.
Lainey Cameron 12:49
And it was so funny, because I went I thought, no, let me think about that. I went away and I came back the next week, and I was like, I don't want to write a book a year. I have all these other fun things I do in my life. I actually don't want to write a book a year. And it was just a really good example of like, sometimes we don't stop to ask ourselves what we really, truly want. Like, yeah, I've talked about having a chronic health condition in the past, yeah.
Lainey Cameron 13:11
Like, the last thing I want is to put myself on a hamster wheel where I feel like I'm constantly trying to create a book a year. Like, that's really bad for me, physically and mentally to do that. But I never stopped and said, like, maybe I don't want that. Maybe that's not for me.
Camille Pagan 13:24
So that's a simple example of that I love,that I remember that that was amazing. You're like, no, no. Actually, I would say a lot of the like, the next level of clients that I get, if they don't want a new agent, they're happy with their agent, they still often feel stuck. So they feel like they're not getting the sales that they want, the marketing support.
Camille Pagan 13:46
Of course, you all, you run a marketing podcast, you know all about that. Regardless of path, most authors complain that they don't get the support that they are seeking, regardless of the publisher. So that's a big issue. And we talk about, okay, how do you write a breakout book? How do you make sure that you're putting in all the stuff that you are so amazing at and love and positioning with the market? And that is another thing that people just don't think about.
Camille Pagan 14:14
There are no truly unicorn books. There are books that need to be just positioned so that anyone reading, not just the agent, but the reader. Like, we don't really like new things as humans. We want safety, right? We eat Oreos because we know what they taste like. We go to Starbucks because we know what we're going to get. And so even though you're like, Well, I'm going to slip a little like caramel sauce in there, it still has to sound like something they've tried before in order for them to take it. So, yeah, that's that's what we look at.
Paulette Stout 14:44
And then interesting, I want to ask you one question that wasn't in our little notes, if that's okay, because it's a really interesting point. So you have, like, these personal expectations for what you know, what you think the world wants of you, and then you maybe pause, like Lainey did. Think about what you want and like, how do you kind of marry those two together? If they're not aligned?
Camille Pagan 15:07
I think that they can always be aligned. I think if we look at how any author does their business, you know, or wants to do their business, there is someone out there doing it in a similar way, and so you have to go find those examples, because just to run with what Lainey said, this isn't actually what we talked about in that conversation, but let's just say, Lainey said, All I see is people doing a book a year, and this is the expectation I'm going to be like, Okay, I want you to go comb through Publishers Marketplace and see the authors who put out one stellar book every three to four years, they are out there. Go talk to your local bookseller, your local librarian.
Camille Pagan 15:46
Let's say you wanted to write about food and you couldn't find anyone doing crime fiction with food in it. I'd be like, go have some conversations with reader groups who read, you know, that kind of book, or who read thrillers. You have to do some digging, because that tells your brain. Oh, this is possible for you. I think you can align the things. It might take some shifting. It'll take some doing. You may need to go outside of yourself and get help from someone who does this, agent, coach, publisher, whatever. But, yeah, it's possible. I believe that.
Lainey Cameron 16:18
I think one of the things,one of the things related to that that you taught me, so I'm going to give a little secret from Camille's coaching here, that you taught me was when we have a belief, we see things that reinforce our belief. Yeah, so the simplest example of that is if I get up in the morning and I'm having a really bad I'm in a bad mood, it's going to be a bad day. And I tell myself, today is going to be a bad day, the first thing I see when I walk out the house is going to be something bad. Because I'm not going to notice the sunshine in Mexico and the fact that I live in this beautiful colonial town. I'm going to notice the garbage on the street. Yeah, right. Because, like, you're and you do this with your characters, right? Like, when a character's in a mood, the way they see the world is based in their mood.
Lainey Cameron 16:56
And so I think that was one of the things that helped me realize that my own perception is is based on my own beliefs, and that if I want to change the world and change my path, I need to change those beliefs. Otherwise, I'll keep seeing things that reinforce, you know, self published authors never succeed. Well, then I'm going to see see examples everywhere of self published authors not succeeding, and it's going to reinforce that. And it's not true.
Camille Pagan 17:18
Yeah, Lucy Score would like a word. Yeah, cognitive bias is real. I think it's the thing that sometimes people come to me very angry. They're like, I'm not doing that woo stuff. I'm like, No, listen, I'm a former health reporter. I don't this is all science based. I'm not telling you to ignore the bad things in the world. I'm telling you to just be clear about what you want to believe, knowing that your brain is going to skew negative, because that's what all human brains do. Not a big deal, right?
Paulette Stout 17:49
Yes, for sure. So that's speaking of negative. I know lots of people become stressed when contemplating change. It's like what you were saying, one of those things we don't like to do. So if it's if we're trying to correct things that are not going well, can you just, like, share a little bit like, how we shift our mindset around overcoming, like, perceived failure? Because I'm sure that's a lot of people come to you feeling like something's going wrong and it needs to be fixed.
Camille Pagan 18:16
Oh absolutely, I mean, I think that's anyone who's going to hire a coach, whether it's in a group setting or one on one, they think something is going wrong, and that's okay. I think that that is the point at which we change. Like, if you look at there's this great book called literally how to change by Katie milkman, and she talks about all of her her research and others on why do we make a change? It comes from a place of dissatisfaction or feeling that it cannot go on this way. Not really shocking, right? So I usually try to get writers to see long term the failure.
Camille Pagan 18:52
To me, it's a construct, and we can decide it means whatever we want it to mean. You could say, well, my last book didn't sell the way I wanted. That's a failure. I personally define failure as I did not reach my long term goal, and I quit before I got there. Like, to me, okay, so you have a backlist that's not selling, that's not over. It. Can keep selling until you call it and, like, pull those books. So we just kind of go long term perspective. First of it's okay to have the feeling that it's not working. Maybe it is truly not working. We could prove that in a court of law.
Camille Pagan 19:28
And can you see that part of the work of being a career novelist is to test and fail like no one comes out doing this perfectly from the start. No one, if you study any career, and what I love is so many of these really best selling novelists have done tons of interviews, so you just go on the interwebs search, and they will talk about how the path does not look so great while you're in the middle of it, you just have to keep going and you get there. So
Paulette Stout 19:55
that's interesting. So talking about like a path and a long term view of our career. So. So, you know, different parts of our career might need different focus at different where we you know, where we are, maturity and so forth. So how do we decide what to like focus our energies on at different parts of our author journey?
Camille Pagan 20:15
Well, I might answer this a little strangely, but I think the central focus is always the state the same. My central philosophy is you create a body of work, and all of the other things may be necessary at certain points. But if you can keep your eye on that body of work, it clarifies so much so that is your central focus. That is your main mission is to write one book after another. If you want to be a career novelist, which hopefully your listeners do, or career author, if they write in other realms, then from that place, knowing that that is what takes up most of your time, you make decisions that are aligned for you.
Camille Pagan 20:56
I know both of you talk a lot about this. Just because it's working for one person, if it sounds awful to you, doesn't mean you have to do it. I don't do reels on Instagram. I could learn how to do it. I don't want to. That's not the best use of my time. Ultimately, we need to support our work, but if we can write the books that our readers want to read, that's your number one marketing vehicle. So thinking a lot about that. I don't know if I answered your question.
Paulette Stout 21:21
You did. And it's so interesting, lady, because when I asked that, when we asked that question, I'm, you know, I'm the marketer girl. You know, what I do for my living, and I'm always thinking of like, marketing, marketing, marketing. And it was just so interesting that you just centered on the work, you know, why are we writing? Why did you want to be an author to write books? So write the books like focus on that. You can control that.
Camille Pagan 21:47
What you can control is marketing, if you think about it, you know, I know it's art that we have as commerce, but if you position a book a certain way, that becomes its own marketing vehicle, if you position it another way. That's a different marketing path, and that is the piece that I would say, when you start in fiction, most of us overlook. Authors come to me and I'm like, Who are your cops? I have no idea. Who do you want to be next to in the bookshelf? You know, if I go to Barnes and Noble, where should I find you? I don't know. That's okay. You know, it's not like if you go to MFA program or a fiction class, no one tells you to do this. It's a fixable problem, but I do think if you want to make money from your books, you have to do that work. Yeah.
Lainey Cameron 22:36
Cool. Well, we're going to take a little sponsor break here, but once we come back from the sponsor break, I'm excited because we're going to talk about publishing pivots, right? What if you start as indie and then you go to a big publisher? What if you start as a big publisher and then you go to indie? And it's actually a fun conversation, because Paulette and I are both in the middle of working through two very different potential publishing pivots, and so we'll be honest about what we're going through and what we're looking at.
Lainey Cameron 22:59
And I love this topic, because I think there's a lot of shame in publishing models, and it just drives me crazy because I see it as snobbery, and so I'm looking forward to that conversation.
Lainey Cameron 23:09
But before we go there, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Alida Winterheimer. Alida is a book coach. She also offers amazing MFA level workshops for authors to really hone your skills as a writer, craft level workshops, and she has a really cool special offer for friends of the podcast, where you get 10% off her workshops if you're a friend of the podcast.
Lainey Cameron 23:29
All you have to do is go to her page, which is on our website. It's word essential com, slash workshops. And she's got a special pass code. It says only if you're a friend of the best of it Marketing podcast. You click on a special link, link, and you put in the code, BBMLOVE , like Best of Book Marketing love, and you get 10% off her upcoming workshops, which are really interesting. They're all around character development, building arcs in your story, how to manage and master point of view. So kind of MFL, a level topics.
Lainey Cameron 23:57
She also has a pretty cool podcast too, called Story Works podcast Round Table, where she does really interesting topics, craft topics with other writers. So if you're looking at honing your craft, I encourage you to go check it out, and thank you again. Alida, our podcast sponsors help pay for the cost of producing this.
Lainey Cameron 24:14
We don't make any money off this. I'll just say this. But sometimes people think the authors are super rich, and they also think the podcasters are super rich. Podcasts in general are a net, net negative, right? You pay money to have a website, to produce it, to put it out there. They don't generally make people money. I'm sure Camille can relate to this. Having a podcast like 100% anyone who thinks podcasts are a money making endeavor like, yeah, step away from the goal. So I will just say I really appreciate it, because it helps defray some of the cost of running a podcast like this, that Paulette and I do for love, not money. So, okay, let's get back to the big topics.
Camille Pagan 24:46
Yeah.
Paulette Stout 24:48
So great. So, so we, we're talking about different types of change. Like, how do we figure out when we need to change? Like, what signs should be watching for? You know,
Camille Pagan 24:58
I, I. Think each of us, if we kind of go deep within generally, know. So the first thing I'm going to encourage anyone I'm working with or just who's listening to this, it's like, Can you just be alone by yourself for 10 minutes and think, Okay, what do I want? I don't even start from a place of like, what needs to happen. You don't want kind of that pushing energy. It's more like, what do I want, and connecting with that long term vision. So it's not well, I'm just going to get this deal right now, like I just have to do this thing, or I will have, sometimes clients come to me, most of my clients who are making a career pivot, thinking about like which direction to going, go from self to traditional and become hybrid authors. I would say that is common, but sometimes a traditional author will come to me, especially one on one, and be like, I'm just going to self publish the next novel because I'm frustrated.
Camille Pagan 25:50
Listen and I've done both. I self publish and traditionally publish. I love both models so much. But I'm like, Okay, what do you want? Well, I I need editorial support. I want marketing support. We'll talk about how much you get of that at some point. But, but, and like you, sounds like you want a team, and you don't get that when you're self publishing. And so they kind of step away from the frustration, tap back into the longer term desire. And from that place, we're like, Okay, does something need to change? Usually, if you're asking that question, the answer is yes, but it's to what degree does it need to change?
Paulette Stout 26:27
So it's kind of hone it like that dissatisfaction. So yeah, you know, is there anything that are like common tips that you use for authors to help navigate different types of transitions, or that everything is different.
Camille Pagan 26:43
Yeah, it really depends. But I like to think about marrying your next project with your long term vision for your career. When I say long term vision, some of us really know, okay, when I'm at the end of my life, I want to be the next. Nora Roberts, let's say I want, I've written, you know, hundreds of books, or whatever. A lot of times people are like, I can only see the next three to five years up ahead, and that is totally okay.
Camille Pagan 27:10
That's usually where I start, because I don't know, you don't need to know the rest of your life. But if you know three to five years from now, you want to have, let's just say five books published. One of them is made into a successful film project. You have support, you have a marketing assistant or something, or a VA, something like that. Great. Okay, let's talk about how to make your very next book match that vision, because it's a stepping stone on that instead of just having the big dream and then settling for the next project.
Lainey Cameron 27:41
So let's talk a little bit more about self publishing. And this is where we get into some of these, like, shame type topics. Oh, yeah, I think self publishing is wonderful because it lets us take control over author careers, right? And whereas, you know, rewind, you know, I don't know how many decades I need to go back, let's say 20 years ago you needed an agent, and there was a gatekeeper, and then that gatekeeper needed to sell the book, and we didn't have all these choices to just say, my work is ready and I'm going to take it out there for readers. Yeah, but there's still a lot of misconceptions, right misconceptions like the self published or indie books or lower quality and some of these misperceptions, like authors themselves, buy into, and then they start to have shame around choosing that choice, feeling like they went down a second best path that they didn't really get the thing that would have been the better, primo version. Do you have any advice for us on how to get beyond that shame? Because it is just that, right? It's not very helpful. And it's like, it's shame, yeah.
Camille Pagan 28:34
Okay, so I like money. As a person who grew up without money, it's not that that doesn't drive me, like, obviously I'd be doing something other than fiction if that was the only goal. But I believe that we need to create a life that allows us to create art, and so the money goes with that. I think that's really important. So to the person who believes that, I would say, just go spend some time on Amazon seeing what's selling. There's dollars behind that. And so many of those authors are self published, or were self published at one point.
Camille Pagan 29:06
I do strongly believe that the stigma is changing, because if you just watch the deals being made, traditional publishers are snatching up these self published books as fast as they can, because they work, because they are working, most of the time, the time the cover doesn't even change. They're publishing it with the same cover that that person put out, not always, but often. So I think we're seeing a big shift. I think even two years from now, this will barely be a conversation. It's happened so fast. I really love to see it.
Camille Pagan 29:35
And it comes back to well, what do you really want? Because every author, I would argue, wants something that they are proud of, that they're not embarrassed of. You can get that working with a traditional publisher, meaning something you're embarrassed of, and you can get it self publishing. And there are, I'm very visual, Paulette, you clearly are because your titles are fire like your covers, they're all so good. So not everyone is that way, and that's okay.
Camille Pagan 30:02
I don't think you have to be a design genius to self publish, but you do need to, like, get a designer who understands your niche, who will really you can say, these are my two comps. Give me a cover that has a baby and like, that is my cover. So you have to be strategic about that. I think you can get that with either model. You just need to know that's what you're aiming for.
Paulette Stout 30:26
Yeah, it's so interesting about the whole shame thing self publishing, because obviously folks, folks that are author circles know me as a self published author, and I'm very proudly waving the indie flag. I know that there's lots of yeah in our in our organizations that we're in have, like, made the leap into indie because, you know, sometimes there just isn't a market for the books that they want to sell. But as you know, there aren't readers for those stories.
Paulette Stout 30:50
So I've been talking with Lainey and about my next book. Yeah, I had talked to an agent about and I was considering querying, which is kind of like a weird thing for me, who is, like, you know, Joe indie, yeah, like, even consider, yeah, query an agent and doing things. But, you know, as great as I know my books are, there are still blockers, like, kind of in the industry. There's like, panels I can't be on, there's libraries that won't accept me. There's awards I can't submit for, you know, so there's all of these structural obstacles that do exist.
Paulette Stout 31:26
So I feel like, you know, I'm pretty badass, like I should be on whatever. So, like, part of me is just wanting to kind of get the little notch so that I can kind of accomplish those things. Because, like, to your point, like, what's your goal? But then I feel kind of, you know, am I selling out, pursuing those things? You know, I don't even know what the question is there for me. I'm just little confession, I suppose,
Lainey Cameron 31:51
Well I think the question is around like, you know, some people have shame over going indie. I think Paulette has some shame over abandoning indie. Like she feels like she's abandoning her community if she considers a non indie publisher for the next book.
Camille Pagan 32:04
Which I completely understand. And I think that the superpower each of us must have in order to be successful as a novelist is a willingness to change as needed, a willingness to pivot. Sometimes that pivot is in our thoughts. Other times it's in our path, I have done several things in my career that I would say even so my second book was published with Lake Union at that time, my well meaning colleagues, who I had gone to a post grad publishing course with, were like, What is wrong with you? You are, you know, really going to harm your career? There were stronger words that I will not put because this is live streaming. And I thought, this is they're going to sell the crap out of my book. And they did. I did an audible original and then self published that book on my own. And a lot of people said, Well, why didn't you bring it back to your publisher to let them do it?
Camille Pagan 32:57
I wanted to do something different. I republished my debut and took out some of the things in it that didn't work in the original version. Again, lots of people told me I shouldn't do that. People have opinions. They're allowed, and you have to do what's right for you, and you reserve the right to change your mind. Lainey has probably heard me say that 4000 times in coaching, but no one actually says that. We're like, Well, I'm in this lane. I've been packaged this way.
Camille Pagan 33:22
The funniest thing about my experience that brought me to coaching was that my publisher was telling me what my brand was, and I was literally the person writing the books. I think I get to call it right, but I understand where they were coming from, and we must do what is right for us, even if other people don't get it, and that's okay.
Lainey Cameron 33:44
So I have another publishing pivot question. This one's not an indie one, so much. So I came up with a small publisher from my first book, my debut with a digital first small publisher, the Wild Rose Press. I was very happy with that. For me at that moment in time, it was exactly what I needed. My book didn't have it. We were talking about this earlier. My book didn't have obvious comps, so it really wasn't going to land with a larger publisher. I was very proud of it. I wanted it in the world.
Lainey Cameron 34:08
Now, as I look at like my second book, I'm asking myself, What do I get in marketing if I go with some of these bigger publishers? And I'm probably a little jaded, because I saw during COVID that some of the authors who were traditionally published with bigger publishers kind of got, well, I'm not, I'm going to use a bad word, screwed over by their publishers, because those publishers weren't able to do on the marketing side what the author thought they could. Their marketing capacity was not really what, you know, they were sold this, this publisher will do all these things for you, and it will be amazing. Maybe they were sold that they were going to be a league title, and then, you know, the bookstores closed, the publishers didn't have lists of customers, and those authors kind of did end up in a bad place, right? They just didn't get what they were promised.
Lainey Cameron 34:48
But it brought home to me that it's hard to know, and that was an extreme version with COVID, but it's hard to know what a big publisher is really going to do with for you in the marketing side, and how do people realistically. Approach this question of what a publisher will and won't do for me on the marketing side of things?
Camille Pagan 35:05
Even the agents can't say for sure, because let's just say that you and I sell a book at the same time for the same amount of money to the same editor, and we are promised the same things. I guarantee you that we would not have the same marketing experience, and we would never know why. No one, any publisher, is ever going to tell you why. Probably it's a liability. I don't know why this is you're just not going to get clear answers, just like self publishing.
Camille Pagan 35:34
Every time you put out a book, you're taking a risk. But I think we can take educated risks. We can look at you can work with someone like me, right? This is not a plug for my business. If you're like, I just don't know how to navigate these imprints, I'm going to go work with someone. And there are other people like this too, who'd be like, oh so and so they're known for one book with their authors, whereas this place really small list, you might get a smaller advance, but they're going to just sell the crap out of your book, because that is what we see the pattern as. So you can make those guesses, but even your agent might say, Well, I've seen that.
Camille Pagan 36:08
They're just doing so well and your book doesn't perform and doesn't get the support, or it does get the support and it doesn't perform. So the best you can do is ask for what you want, right? Be proactive. If you're working with an agent. Let them play bad cop if they need to, and ask for even more and then also support yourself. I think the idea that any of us is going to go work with a publisher and do nothing, and I hear this all the time, I like I know that that worked 25 years ago, but even 15 it did not that is not the modern publishing experience. You can do it that way. It's just that you may not sell the same way.
Lainey Cameron 36:53
I couldn't agree more that you can't just delegate it all to your publisher, like in my classes, in my this is going to be my third group, and I think each group has had at least one or two like Union authors. And like Union is actually kind of my dream publisher. I would love to get published with Lake Union, putting it out there into the universe.
Lainey Cameron 37:08
That's yeah, publisher right now, positive vibes, yeah, even though those authors, you know, have like Union, who I think does a great job on the marketing side, they're in my class, and we're pointing out thing. And I'm pointing out like, this is where you need to go. You need your own newsletter. You need to take control of things, yeah, not just delegate it all to your publisher, even if your publisher is doing a good job with your marketing, yeah, yeah.
Camille Pagan 37:28
And I can say with certainty, no matter where you go, they are not going to walk down a checklist with you to make sure you've done all the things that you have what you need. I shifted from Lake Union to Penguin Random House. They have a lovely author portal. They have lots of guides. Still no one is going to hold my hand to make sure. Like Camille, did you put your newsletter up? They are not going to do that. That's okay, right? There are places like this podcast. A lot of times authors will say to me, Well, I'm not making money yet. You know, I don't have the ability to go do these things, I really do reject that, because I would say 80% of everything you need is free. I know, because you and I both do that, we give so much away. There are so many great resources. Yes, you can spend money. I know every time I want to up level my career, I spend money to do that within my budget in a rational way, but a lot of it is free. So I think that there are resources, even for the person who's like, I'm strapped. I don't know how to do this.
Lainey Cameron 38:29
I completely agree
Paulette Stout 38:32
And it's so hard because, you know, we're in a community as authors. Hopefully you are in a community, you are giving, you are supporting, but then you're also seeing what everyone else does. And, you know, yeah, it's hard with the little green eyed monster shows up and it's, yeah, do it over there, like, how come I'm not doing what, getting, what, whatever, like they're doing. How do we navigate, like, those professional jealousies? Because they come up even no matter where you are in your career, you're going to have that.
Camille Pagan 38:58
Yeah, I think that's almost the misbelief that makes me crack up the most, because people really seem to believe if you hit a certain level of success, you will stop feeling this way. I don't ever disclose my clients unless they want to give me a testimonial, but I've coached names you would recognize that your aunt would recognize. It doesn't ever go away. We're all humans. The reason why we write so compellingly is because we've got big emotions.
Camille Pagan 39:26
I love jealousy. I think it is such a beautiful gift, because sometimes you know how we're just talking about you don't know what you want until you're like, stop to think about it. Well, jealousy is a sign to stop and think about it. There are some people having just phenomenal success where I'm like, I don't want that good for her, not for me, right? When I'm like, oh, I want that. I'm like, oh, I want that good to know that's what I'm working toward. And then you can shift whether it's a book decision, a marketing decision, how.
Camille Pagan 40:00
Do I need to think to create that for myself? That's where you get all the good stuff is from that place. I'm not saying stay there, right? Comparison, I just feel lousy. You're like, Oh, I'm the worst person. Why do I feel this way? But once you're like, Okay, I am jealous. What does that tell me? What is the information here for me? And I think it's really powerful.
Paulette Stout 40:21
And then it's, I can't tell you how much I love that as using jealousy, kind of like looking at the underlying causes for the jealousy. Like, what is this motivating? What is this urging you towards? Because sometimes what happens with me when I get both is I look at the thing that the person is doing, and I'm like, do I want to do all the work and the effort that that person did to get what they got. And sometimes it's yes, and sometimes it's like, Yeah, nah. So then I have to kind of check myself. It's like, well, it's all fine and good to be jealous of something, but if you're not willing to do the work, then, right? It's kind of wasted energy a little bit.
Camille Pagan 40:57
Yeah, that's so smart, I completely agree.
Paulette Stout 41:02
So as we're kind of getting to the towards the end of our conversation, wanted to make sure, is there anything specific where you wish you could kind of just like, talk to your clients and help them like, you know, not baby, shake them, but just like, you know, gently wiggle them into a different state of mind around, you know, challenges they're having.
Camille Pagan 41:25
Well, I'll offer you the thing that is on my mind right now because I just recorded one of my longer podcasts on this, no matter who I'm working with, it could be 20 or in their 70s, and I work with that range of people. I don't have, like, a, oh, my demographic is, is a 45 year old woman. No, I work with people of all ages. They are primarily women, but not exclusively. I work with men and non binary folk. So the thing I hear from every single person, with maybe a couple exceptions, is I'm too late. Successful, not successful by any definition, young, old, everyone seems to have this idea that they should have started earlier. They should be farther along. They somehow missed the boat for this big opportunity of the thing that they want to create.
Camille Pagan 42:13
And to that, I say probably not. I'd say 90% of the time. That's not true. And if you're in that 10% the example I use in the podcast that's out next week is, let's just say you are 85 and your doctor says, I think you probably have five years left, and you've written 15 books. You want to write 200 then maybe you could say, okay, that's not realistic. I'm going to go write a fabulous trilogy and sell 100,000 copies. That's rarely the case that you actually have to adjust the goal. It's more like, Okay, why am I thinking this? And the Cliff Notes version is it's self protective for the brain.
Camille Pagan 42:51
If you're thinking you're too late, you've just given yourself an out, you don't have to go be vulnerable. You don't do as much work your brain means well, but it is holding you back from the goal.
Paulette Stout 43:02
So that's you don't risk failing, exactly. If you don't try, then you can't fail.
Camille Pagan 43:07
Yeah, yeah, even if you're just like, oh, this is taking so long because I'm late and I'm feeling lousy and I'm Doom scrolling or whatever, to brain, trying to protect you. And then you look up and you just, you know, pass another couple years,
Lainey Cameron 43:22
I like that. Don't go after the big scary thing your brain is protecting you from that big scary thing, which is maybe what's for you. I love that every time. Yeah. So, so Camille, for those who are not familiar with the programs that you have, I think your career, novelist mastermind, is open for registration right now. Can you just get a little bit about what it is and how it works.
Camille Pagan 43:41
Yeah. So I love this program so much. I'll just full disclosure, it is a four month program. It has had different iterations. Four months seems to be the sweet spot for me. We meet three times a month, so a total of 12 sessions. Sometimes there's a bonus session in there. Spoiler alert, and it is a foundational course. So each month there's a lesson that is really, I believe, foundational for how do you create a career as an obelisk? Then there is a workshop that teaches you, how do you put that into practice? A lot of us are really good at consuming and not actually doing. I'm guilty of this. This is why I do a workshop.
Paulette Stout 44:20
We did episode on that, yeah.
Camille Pagan 44:23
Like, let me just get all the knowledge. I'll do nothing with it. So I want to make sure noone leaves doing that. And then the third week is coaching, so you just bring anything you want to ask me doesn't have to be around the lesson, and I give you personalized support. I love that third piece so much because I don't separate between published and unpublished writers. It's usually about half and half, and some people are really mid career, and some I do ask that you have finished a book first so you just know that you actually like writing fiction. I think that that's kind of important, and it is so amazing to see people's faces light up when they realize that the work is the work at every level. Level that you know, getting multi published, it doesn't cure these kind of issues that you're going through.
Camille Pagan 45:06
The debut author may need to market the same way that the person further down the road does, and that's important, because I think a lot of us are waiting to reach a certain level to do the thing like, Oh, when I sell this number of books, I'll start doing Instagram reels or whatever. When I finally make 5000 a month. I'll get on Tiktok. No, right? You want to make those decisions right from the beginning in a authentic, sustainable way. And I think that's really the eye opener. And the community is phenomenal. The writers, I'd say the writers are so good, because Lainey sends me a lot of it's just a lovely, lovely group of people.
Lainey Cameron 45:40
Yeah, it's fun. And as Camille says, I went through it myself, and it's helped, including realize that, realizing that I don't want to write a book a year, among other many other things, and the mindset thing has really helped me. Realizing that I see what I want to see, right? I sell. I kind of those beliefs are reinforced. And so yeah, trying really hard to change my beliefs as well. So yeah, what about last question? What about if someone is maybe not ready for the mastermind yet? I know you do a lot of webinars. People to get on your list, because you do a ton of free webinars. But is there anything you'd recommend for people who are maybe early debuts, for example?
Camille Pagan 46:15
Yeah, so I well first on February 28 I have an open coaching call. If you are on my newsletter, you will have access to that just to kind of experience. What is that like to ask questions? You don't have to be on video. Most people don't want to do that. So it's just you put your you know question in the Q and A, and I will give you personalized support. It's very rare that I'm like, I have nothing to offer you. Sometimes they'll say, such and such resource is more appropriate for you. So that's good. So if you just want to see, like, what would I actually do to help you? That would be a good opportunity. So get on the newsletter, which is on even better.co. Forward slash how dash two. So that's where my newsletter is.
Camille Pagan 46:52
And then, as you said, Lainey, I do have the success strategies for debut authors, free training, and it is basically what I wish someone had given me when I was a debut author. It's such as, you know, it can be a really hard experience. We're so excited, and we're like, expecting everything, and it can feel very stressful, very fraught, very disappointing in a lot of cases. So I talk about both strategically, what do you do with that? And then psychologically, what are some resources that can help with that.
Paulette Stout 47:21
Yeah. And that one is called what Camille
Camille Pagan 47:24
Success Strategies for Debut Authors.
Paulette Stout 47:30
Yeah. So as we wrap up our episode, I just want to make sure that everyone knows how to connect with you, how to get on your newsletter. Where is the best place for folks to connect with you?
Camille Pagan 47:40
You go to even better.co everything is there. You can link to my actual author page, all of my socials that I actually use. The newsletter, a link to the podcast. Like I said, so much of what I do, just like both of you, is free, so there's a lot there.
Paulette Stout 47:55
Great. So thank you so much for joining us. It's been great. Thank you. Have a conversation, thanks for listening now and in the future. And if you want to get in touch with us, please follow us at best of Book Marketing Podcast, on our website, on social Book Marketing Podcast, and always check out our episodes on YouTube and on Apple and all the places Spotify, wherever you listen to episodes and please, if you enjoy what we're doing, please leave a review.
Camille Pagan 48:29
Yeah, thank you.
Paulette Stout 48:31
Bye bye.